2 1/4 x 3 1/4 Film Holders. Busch Pressman Model C

[DaveFred]

I recently was loaned an old friends family Busch Pressman Model C kit.
It only had one film holder with it. So I order a couple of cheap ones from the ebay.
They dont fit the camera, despite being 2 1/4 x 3 1/4 holders. They are slightly too wide by a frustratingly small ammount.
Does this mean I am limited to wooden style film holders?

Are there names for the different types/sizes of film holders other than manufacturers?

 

[Philippe-Georges]

Linhof had these, but they don't fit the International 23 Graflex system.
I am still looking for these too.

See picture as an example.

 

[Dan Fromm]

If you're going to use the borrowed camera a lot, look for an Adapt-A-Roll 620. These will feed from 120 spools, must take up on a 620 spool. Beware, they were made in sizes to fit 2x3, 3x4 and 4x5 cameras. Since you have a borrowed 2x3 Pressman, you want one that will fit a 2x3er. There are none currently on eBay.

 

[Rick A]

What is the spacing between the rails?

I recently was loaned an old friends family Busch Pressman Model C kit.
It only had one film holder with it. So I order a couple of cheap ones from the ebay.
They dont fit the camera, despite being 2 1/4 x 3 1/4 holders. They are slightly too wide by a frustratingly small ammount.
Does this mean I am limited to wooden style film holders?

Are there names for the different types/sizes of film holders other than manufacturers?

 

[DaveFred]

What is the spacing between the rails?

Caliper says 78.1mm for wooden holder that fits, 78.8m for lisco regal plastic holder that doesnt fit.
The opening for holder on the back is basically also 78.8mm.

 

[DaveFred]

If you're going to use the borrowed camera a lot, look for an Adapt-A-Roll 620. These will feed from 120 spools, must take up on a 620 spool. Beware, they were made in sizes to fit 2x3, 3x4 and 4x5 cameras. Since you have a borrowed 2x3 Pressman, you want one that will fit a 2x3er. There are none currently on eBay.

I initally was searching for a roll film option, but after searching and getting frustrated with trying to figure out compatibilities. I discovered the world of positive paper and RA4 reversals. I've got quite a bit of 2 1/4 x 3 1/4 arista400 too. Having fun tray processing tiny sheet film / paper negatives. Definitely keeping an eye open for one of these though if they ever show up.

 

[Rick A]

Caliper says 78.1mm for wooden holder that fits, 78.8m for lisco regal plastic holder that doesnt fit.
The opening for holder on the back is basically also 78.8mm. View attachment 358426 View attachment 358427

I have five plastic Linhof holders, 2x 6x9 and 3x 6.5x9 that measure 78mm wide. These can be used for film or glass plates.

For Sale - Linhof Film/Plate Holders

I promised my Mrs. I would dispense of all my unnecessary gear now before she has to deal with it. A Pair of Linhof 2-1/4 x 3-1/4" (6x9)DDS film holders. Very clean, the auto feed gates open when the dark slide is retracted. These also have a film eject to ease unloading. $30usd/pair plus...

www.photrio.com

 

[Philippe-Georges]

It is not the wideness alone that counts for the so called International Graflex 23 coupling system, nor the total thickness of the cassette.
The shape of the longitudinal side is at least as important. There should be a slot, a long grove actually, in it, and a screw in the middle.
In that slot the sliding thongs, the chrome tongs with the red handels shown in my previously shown photo, mus fit.
The linhof ones do not attach the same way, as these are made to be slid beween the spring held ground glass frame and the camera's backside, just like a traditional 4"x5" sheet film holder.

In the photos I attach now, you can see the shape of the camera side of a roll film cassette {a WISTA 6x9, which has the same pattern as the Horseman, the Graflex 23 and the Linhof Rollex (as used on the ALPA camera's)}.
In the first photo, if you look closely, you can see that grove with the chrome screw halfway of it, which is meant to position the cassette in the camera's 6x9 frame.
In the second photo you can see the inner side of the grove with the screws.
In the third photo you can see the traces made by the thongs when slid in that grove (a Wista cassette).

The thickness of the outer, camera oriented, side and the border of the grove is around 4 mm, the deepness of that grove is about the same.

The roll film- and the sheet film cassette must always be positioned with the dark slide upside, or on the right side when used horizontally.
This coupling system is nowadays still used on the still made Silvestri-, the ALPA SWISS- and the Alvandi cameras, and perhaps others too.
I think, but I am not certain, that the sheet- and cut film cassettes for the 6x9 Mamiya Press have the right shape/thickness.

By way of information: there is an considerabel difference between SHEET film (was plate film) and CUT film.
Sheets are 6,5 cm wide, and come as such (9 cm long) boxed by the manufacturers like ILFOR and MACO and, for the Imperial measure fans, is exactly 2,56"x3,54".
Cut film is 6 cm wide as it is a 9 cm long piece that has to be cut off a 120 roll film or a traditional sheet film (a quarter of a plate???) a not so easy DIY job I think.

BTW, I must admit never to have seen nor held these sheet-/cut film cassettes in real, what I tell here is purely based on literature, user manuals, pictures and the experience with roll film cassettes (which I use on my Silvestri, hence the photos).

PS: I am looking for a pair of SHEET film cassettes...

 

[Dan Fromm]

It is not the wideness alone that counts for the so called International Graflex 23 coupling system, nor the total thickness of the cassette.
The shape of the longitudinal side is at least as important. There should be a slot, a long grove actually, in it, and a screw in the middle.
In that slot the sliding thongs, the chrome tongs with the red handels shown in my previously shown photo, mus fit.
The linhof ones do not attach the same way, as these are made to be slid beween the spring held ground glass frame and the camera's backside, just like a traditional 4"x5" sheet film holder.

In the photos I attach now, you can see the shape of the camera side of a roll film cassette {a WISTA 6x9, which has the same pattern as the Horseman, the Graflex 23 and the Linhof Rollex (as used on the ALPA camera's)}.
In the first photo, if you look closely, you can see that grove with the chrome screw halfway of it, which is meant to position the cassette in the camera's 6x9 frame.
In the second photo you can see the inner side of the grove with the screws.
In the third photo you can see the traces made by the thongs when slid in that grove (a Wista cassette).

The thickness of the outer, camera oriented, side and the border of the grove is around 4 mm, the deepness of that grove is about the same.

The roll film- and the sheet film cassette must always be positioned with the dark slide upside, or on the right side when used horizontally.
This coupling system is nowadays still used on the still made Silvestri-, the ALPA SWISS- and the Alvandi cameras, and perhaps others too.
I think, but I am not certain, that the sheet- and cut film cassettes for the 6x9 Mamiya Press have the right shape/thickness.

By way of information: there is an considerabel difference between SHEET film (was plate film) and CUT film.
Sheets are 6,5 cm wide, and come as such (9 cm long) boxed by the manufacturers like ILFOR and MACO and, for the Imperial measure fans, is exactly 2,56"x3,54".
Cut film is 6 cm wide as it is a 9 cm long piece that has to be cut off a 120 roll film or a traditional sheet film (a quarter of a plate???) a not so easy DIY job I think.

BTW, I must admit never to have seen nor held these sheet-/cut film cassettes in real, what I tell here is purely based on literature, user manuals, pictures and the experience with roll film cassettes (which I use on my Silvestri, hence the photos).

PS: I am looking for a pair of SHEET film cassettes...

That's a nice but irrelevant explanation. The 2x3 Pressman -- I've had one -- has a spring back and accepts only insertion type film holders.

 

[Philippe-Georges]

That's a nice but irrelevant explanation. The 2x3 Pressman -- I've had one -- has a spring back and accepts only insertion type film holders.

Thank you for pointing out the irrelevance of my explanation, that's how I can learn permanently.
But I have a question for you: is the way a roll film back is attached on the Mamiya Press 23 compatible with with the International 23 Graflock?

 

[Donald Qualls]

is the way a roll film back is attached on the Mamiya Press 23 compatible with with the International 23 Graflock?

I have both an RB67 and a Century Graphic -- the latter with a classic Graflok back including the pins on the ground glass panel to hold it under the spring arms on the back (pins equivalent to the chrome screws on the roll back you pictured above). I also have two Graphic type sheet film holders (no groove on the edge) and while they will work under the ground glass panel on the Century's Graflok back, there's no way to lock them into the Graflok sliders on the RB67, which has no provision for a ground glass panel (unneeded, since it's an SLR). One of the other fit issues, and the difference between Graphic and Gralfex backs/film holders (at least in 4x5) is whether there's a rib or groove on the film holder at the dark slide end; at least on 4x5 (where I've seen both types) the Graphic holders have a rib to fit a matching groove on the camera back; when held in place by the tension of a spring back, that keeps the holder in place against the end force of pulling the dark slide.

The Graflex film holders (again, in 4x5 where I have experience) have a groove instead of a rib, and also are grooved along both edges to fit the holding clamps of the Graflex type camera back (much like a Graflok, but dimensionally not the same and with only a single slider; the other metal clamp is fixed).

Presuming the same is true in 2x3, it looks like your Pressman has a Graphic type spring back, which ought to fit any Graphic type film holder and might (if the springs have enough travel) accept a 2x3 Grafmatic (as well as probably an Adapt-A-Roll Six-20 for 2x3 mount). It will NOT accept a Graflex type sheet film holder or Graflex compatible accessories (in 4x5 there are Grafmatics for both mounts!).

Directly to the question, it's been my understanding that accessories for the RB67's 2x3 Graflok mount will not fit a Press 23, and vice versa; the Press 23 expects roll holders that extend off both sides of the mount, while the RB67 Graflok has a blind end (on the photographer's left when the mount is in horizontal format). Photos from this eBay listing would confirm that -- the mount is closer to a Graflex type than the more modern Graflok on the RB67.

 

[btaylor]

To Philippe-George’s question, I think not. I have 2 Mamiya Press 23 bodies, one is set up for the Mamiya roll film back, the other for the International Graflok. There is a plate attached to the back of each camera, one accepts the Graflok, the other fits only the roll film back.
On the Graflok compatible, it accepts the 2x3 focusing panel assembly I had left over from my Graflex XL as well as my Graflok 2x3 roll film roll film holders.

 

[Paul Howell]

Not sure, but did you buy 6X9 rather than 2 1/4 by 3 1/4? I have Mamiya 6X9 and graphic 2 1/4 by 3 1/4, holders, they are not interchanable.

 

[Chuck1]

I have both an RB67 and a Century Graphic -- the latter with a classic Graflok back including the pins on the ground glass panel to hold it under the spring arms on the back (pins equivalent to the chrome screws on the roll back you pictured above). I also have two Graphic type sheet film holders (no groove on the edge) and while they will work under the ground glass panel on the Century's Graflok back, there's no way to lock them into the Graflok sliders on the RB67, which has no provision for a ground glass panel (unneeded, since it's an SLR). One of the other fit issues, and the difference between Graphic and Gralfex backs/film holders (at least in 4x5) is whether there's a rib or groove on the film holder at the dark slide end; at least on 4x5 (where I've seen both types) the Graphic holders have a rib to fit a matching groove on the camera back; when held in place by the tension of a spring back, that keeps the holder in place against the end force of pulling the dark slide.

The Graflex film holders (again, in 4x5 where I have experience) have a groove instead of a rib, and also are grooved along both edges to fit the holding clamps of the Graflex type camera back (much like a Graflok, but dimensionally not the same and with only a single slider; the other metal clamp is fixed).

Presuming the same is true in 2x3, it looks like your Pressman has a Graphic type spring back, which ought to fit any Graphic type film holder and might (if the springs have enough travel) accept a 2x3 Grafmatic (as well as probably an Adapt-A-Roll Six-20 for 2x3 mount). It will NOT accept a Graflex type sheet film holder or Graflex compatible accessories (in 4x5 there are Grafmatics for both mounts!).

Directly to the question, it's been my understanding that accessories for the RB67's 2x3 Graflok mount will not fit a Press 23, and vice versa; the Press 23 expects roll holders that extend off both sides of the mount, while the RB67 Graflok has a blind end (on the photographer's left when the mount is in horizontal format). Photos from this eBay listing would confirm that -- the mount is closer to a Graflex type than the more modern Graflok on the RB67.

Not to diverge from the subject...
But mamiya 6x4.5 rb backs will fit on a graflex xl or baby graphic? Is a modification necessary?
And the wista 6x9 pictured above with the posts that look like they were made for older horsemans(like a 970) will also work with graflex xl and baby crowns, I've always steered clears of those because the posts look like they would get in the way.....

 

[Chuck1]

I know I have seen busch c branded sheet film pack adapters,
I think I've seen busch branded 2 1/4x3 1/4 sheet film holders.
I think I've actually seen a 6x9 adapta- roll that said busch on it.
It never occurred to me that busch c and baby Graphics weren't interchangable...

 

[Donald Qualls]

But mamiya 6x4.5 rb backs will fit on a graflex xl or baby graphic? Is a modification necessary?

I have 6x4.5, 6x7, and 6x7 on 220 backs for my RB; all of them fit and work on my Century Graphic's Graflok back. Likewise, I have Graflex 22 and 23 backs (and an RH20 6x7 on 220) which fit and work on my RB67 (excepting only that dark slide and double exposure interlocks on the RB67 don't work with the Graflex backs; those are Mamiya upgrades to the Graflok interface). I've made no modifications to either the backs or the cameras to make them interchange. And my 2x3 Grafmatics also fit both cameras.

And now I've probably kicked up the prices of 22, 23, RH12, RH10, and RH20 backs on 2x3 mount...

 

[Dan Fromm]

I think I've actually seen a 6x9 adapta- roll that said busch on it.

Busch made their own insertion type roll holder for the 2x3 Pressman. It used 120 film. I think it is described more fully on Sylvain Halgand's site.

 

[Chuck1]

That might be what I saw

 

[Dan Fromm]

Thank you for pointing out the irrelevance of my explanation, that's how I can learn permanently.
But I have a question for you: is the way a roll film back is attached on the Mamiya Press 23 compatible with with the International 23 Graflock?

I'm sorry, Mamiya Press roll holders can't be fitted to 2x3 Graflok backs. This is a real shame, since the Mamiya backs are supposed to stand out for film flatness.

 

[btaylor]

The Mamiya roll holder film path is the straightest I’ve ever seen. No chance for any bulges forming.
I wish they were compatible with the Graflok.

 

[Donald Qualls]

I wouldn't expect bulges in Graflex (22, 23, RH series) or RB67 backs unless you leave the film for a long time between exposures. My RB67 backs (the ones I've examined the closest) keep enough tension on the film that, combined with going around entire back with emulsion out, the film ought to hold itself pretty flat. The Graflex backs have essentially the same path, but most of them are older than RB67 backs, so film tension might be less.

 

[Jim Jones]

Caliper says 78.1mm for wooden holder that fits, 78.8m for lisco regal plastic holder that doesnt fit.
The opening for holder on the back is basically also 78.8mm. View attachment 358426 View attachment 358427

For what it is worth, the American National Standard for the width of a 3x4 film holder is 78.17 to 78.97 mm. The Lisco holder is slightly within those limits. The Busch camera is not. This is assuming the calipers to be accurate. After a career in electronics, I trust the direct readout of traditional vernier calipers (despite human interpretation) more than the digital conversion of some easier-to-read digital calipers.

 

[DaveFred]

For what it is worth, the American National Standard for the width of a 3x4 film holder is 78.17 to 78.97 mm. The Lisco holder is slightly within those limits. The Busch camera is not. This is assuming the calipers to be accurate. After a career in electronics, I trust the direct readout of traditional vernier calipers (despite human interpretation) more than the digital conversion of some easier-to-read digital calipers.

Thanks Jim. Interesting. That is very useful information to have about the tolerances of the standard.
Also explains why I have two film holders with matching manufacturer markings and patent numbers but one fits and one doesn't.
Jim, you are also confirming the conclusion that I coming to as well. The opening of the Busch camera itself is tighter than some of the 2 1/4 x 3 1/4 cameras that (I am assuming) came after it.
Next time I am in the darkroom I will sit down and sort them and measure and take some pictures to post here just as a summary in case someone else goes down this road.

And yes, that is a VERY cheap caliper.

I have since bought a couple cheap lots of 2 1/4 x 3 1/4 film holders. Have about 18 now
Some are graphic type, some are fidelity, some are Burke and James, some are unbranded.
Some fit, some fit extremely tight, some dont fit at all.
Some fit halfway and get stuck about halfway in. They taper up to the limit of the standard 78.8, 78.9 near the top where dark slide slots and dont insert fully.
I have one that is a little broken that I am going to use a test mule to try sanding down to get to fit the Busch.
It seems like I could take a half a mm off of each side with sanding without introducing light leaks.

 

[Donald Qualls]

I trust the direct readout of traditional vernier calipers (despite human interpretation) more than the digital conversion of some easier-to-read digital calipers.

Me too. We've got one where I work that gives different zero every time you close it -- and not by half a thousandth; this changes by up to five thousandths of an inch. Not sure why it's still in service; should have been sent out for recalibration/repair the day we discovered this...