1st time out with LF: Too Little Torque on the Lens Wrench

So I just got back from shooting on my first time out. Haven't developed diddly yet, but among the many surprises, I found my chosen lens came loose on its lens boards from the cable release's pressure. Fortunately I could switch boards to put another lens in place and finish the day. Guess I was too gentle with the wrench and trying not to hurt anything. When I get back, found some of the others were loose, too. And yet I'd expect using loctite would be a bit extreme.

What do you guys do to avoid a loose lens problem?

Thanks!

I've only one lens that no matter I tightened it always seems to works it's way lose, my guess is the thread was either worn just a little or when it was machined it was ground down just a tad too much. I finally got fed up and put a couple of drops of epoxy which fixed the problem.

I assume you mean you "put a couple of drops of epoxy" on the outer edge of the retainer ring, not on its thread.

AgX said:

I assume you mean you "put a couple of drops of epoxy" on the outer edge of the retainer ring, not on its thread.

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No. I’m sure he mean loctite- it is a commercial product (actually a whole range of products) specially designed to keep threaded fasteners “tight”.

I think I’d just tighten it up real good first and see how that works. Loctite isn’t going to help if the retaining ring is not really tight. Loctite might be appropriate but obviously the weakest one - I don’t remember if that’s like 242 or...???? Using the one that requires the application of heat is going to be a major party foul!

I have a related problem with lenses on 2x3 (2x3, not 4x5, so medium format but please read on) Pacemaker Graphic boards. The boards are quite thin. Properly bored holes allow the retaining ring's centering ridges pass a short distance through the board before the ridge's edge engage the edge of the hole. When a hold is properly bored to specifications in a 2x3 Pacemaker Graphic board the retaining ring's centering ridge start digging into the back of the shutter before the ridge engages the edge of the hole. The lens just goes round and round on the board.

Two solution. Proper, correct and problematic, put a locating screw in the hole waiting for it in the back of the shutter and cut a slot for it in the board. The lens won't spin on the board, will be a little loose and rattle. Incorrect effective method, reverse the retaining ring so that its front compresses the board between itself in the shutter. If not done very carefully, the lens will be a hair off center. This is rarely a bad problem.

Position the lens on the board as you want it to be then run the retainer ring down until very snug. Now turn the lens/ring combo back 45° to 90° , resnug the retainer and hold it firmly with the spanner, grip the lens / shutter and return to its desired position.
Test to see if you can get the shutter to move, if so back it off, tighten the retainer at the new position then turn the shutter back to the desired position. No thread locker needed.

Dan Fromm said:

Two solution. Proper, correct and problematic, put a locating screw in the hole waiting for it in the back of the shutter and cut a slot for it in the board. The lens won't spin on the board, will be a little loose and rattle. Incorrect effective method, reverse the retaining ring so that its front compresses the board between itself in the shutter. If not done very carefully, the lens will be a hair off center. This is rarely a bad problem.

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Third solution
If the lens board is too thin, cut a washer from a piece of cardboard and place it between the retaining ring and the lens board - that is not a big deal.

Yes, I meant loctite. Expoxy seems as suggested - a radical solution. Can I assume this is a hazard of old equipment? The trading and retrading of old lenses?

JWMster said:

Yes, I meant loctite. Expoxy seems as suggested - a radical solution. Can I assume this is a hazard of old equipment? The trading and retrading of old lenses?

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Epoxy would be better than welding.

No. It happens with pretty new equipment too. .

Sirius Glass said:

Epoxy would be better than welding.

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Oh shit! You made my squirt coffee out my nose!!!

JWMster said:

So I just got back from shooting on my first time out. Haven't developed diddly yet, but among the many surprises, I found my chosen lens came loose on its lens boards from the cable release's pressure. Fortunately I could switch boards to put another lens in place and finish the day. Guess I was too gentle with the wrench and trying not to hurt anything. When I get back, found some of the others were loose, too. And yet I'd expect using loctite would be a bit extreme.

What do you guys do to avoid a loose lens problem?

Thanks!

Click to expand...

A modest amount of torque does it for me I go after the principal tight tight or loose

Sirius Glass said:

Epoxy would be better than welding.

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At that point point I might have tired welding it, a good way to just set fire to the wooden lens board and have a reason to buy a new lens. I tired a spacer ring, I used Epoxy because I had it on hand. Two drops on the retaining ring and the lens board, used for for years without any issues. When I upgraded the lens, a Bausch and Lomb 210mm the epoxy came off with a little pressure from a jeweler screwdriver. When the replacement lens arrived, a Nikon 210 it came with a metal lens board that fit my camera so the lens and board are in storage.

I usually make lens retaining rings only finger tight. Can't say I have every had a loose lens in the field, but if I did, I'd just tighten the ring with my fingers again.

ic-racer said:

I usually make lens retaining rings only finger tight. Can't say I have every had a loose lens in the field, but if I did, I'd just tighten the ring with my fingers again.

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Wooden boards?

I use mostly Tech style boards and I really have to crank down on the retaining ring to keep the darned shutter from eventually rotating....gremlins.

I haven't esperienced this problem specifically, but whenever I have a problem with threads coming loose, I either use thread locker, or we kind of glue. Which thread locker or which glue depends on how easy I want to be able to remove it.

For something like this where you'd want to be able to remove pretty easily, without having to apply heat or chemicals, I'd go with rubber cement. Just paint a small amount on the retainer ring and screw it down before the glue dries. That'll keep the retaining ring from backing out.

Also, some shutters have an alignment pin on the rear. If yours has one, drill a corresponding hole into the lensboard so that the shutter can't rotate, and it sits flush on the board. If you're using a metal board and your shutter has one of these, not only will it not sit level, but it'll be hard to keep the shutter tight.

JWMster said:

Yes, I meant loctite. Expoxy seems as suggested - a radical solution.

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However, if one takes care that no cement comes under the ring, the drop(s) can be easily cut again by means of a grinding weel, leaving no mechanical harm.

Of course one could use same cement on the thread the industry used on lenses, and that can be dissolved.

JWMster said:

Yes, I meant loctite. Expoxy seems as suggested - a radical solution. Can I assume this is a hazard of old equipment? The trading and retrading of old lenses?

Click to expand...

Loctite is a brand name, with numerous products, among which:

• cyanoacrylate adhesives, e.g. Loctite 401, 406, 454...
• thread lock, e.g. 243, 222, etc... (I use 222 weak thread lock for camera screws)
  
• and several other classes of products

So just saying "loctite" versus "epoxy" is not informative.

ic-racer said:

I usually make lens retaining rings only finger tight. Can't say I have every had a loose lens in the field, but if I did, I'd just tighten the ring with my fingers again.

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same here,
reading this thread I at least understand the need for lensboard adapters^^

Yes, Loctite got bigger and there are a zillion epoxies these days. Back in the day, it was a one product company like WD40. My apologies for lack of specificity. I meant a non-glue, non-permanent type of product that merely adds viscosity to an otherwise mechanical bond.

Loctite 242 is rated as “REMOVABLE” as in removeable with moderate wrench force. It’s useful for threaded parts that might have to be disassembled eventually. If used on a lens retaining ring, I’d recommend using very little. I've never felt the need to use a thread-lock compound on any of the lenses I've mounted.

https://dm.henkel-dam.com/is/conten...Blue-242-Carded-Tube-0.20-fl-oz-2018-04-09pdf

When I mount a lens-in-shutter to a metal board I sometimes place small strips of Scotch Double-Sided tape on the front of the lens board before installing the shutter. These are trimmed to size with scissors. the double-sided adhesive makes this a bit fussy to work with. Then, when the retaining ring is tightened, the lens shows no tendency to rotate relative to the board (which would loosen the shutter relative to the retaining ring on the back side).

When you tighten the ring, be sure to push significantly harder downward into the ring with the wrench than the torque used to tighten the ring so that the wrench dosen’t slip and ruin the drive slots of the ring, or much worse, slip out and strike the aperture, shutter, or front lens unit. Although a bit of extra work, its safer to remove both the front and rear cells from the shutter and fully open both the shutter and aperture so they’re mostly “out of the way” while tightening the retaining ring. Keep in mind that with most shutters, you're threading an aluminum alloy ring onto a threaded shank of a similar metal (not nearly as strong as steel).

JWMster said:

Yes, I meant loctite. Expoxy seems as suggested - a radical solution. Can I assume this is a hazard of old equipment? The trading and retrading of old lenses?

Click to expand...

Actually you may have a problem of "ring drag" which happens when it goes seemingly tight against board but the whole isn't really tight. Need to wiggle the whole assembly while holding the board firm after it seems tight, just to feel for the actual tightness of fit. Most of the time if this is a frictional drag problem, lens will loosen up on the board. It is best to have a thin flat washer between board and ring as this typically ensures a good tight fit, as ring moves against an intermittent part not the hard fixed board. Alternatively, once ring appears tight, hold the ring and twist the front to tighten further. If front moves, it also shows the drag issue. With some combinations of ring and board, this drag syndrome happens every time.

Let me add that ALL these are suggestions are very helpful. Thank you!

Among most helpful: 1) Knowing that this isn't necessarily an isolated newby problem but may reflect the age of our gear (approach the age of my body), and 2) folks have ways of dealing with it. As a newby with LF, I was intimidated by it, and just figured to figure it out later and switched the lens board/lens combo for one that hadn't come loose. Coming loose may have had something to do with the colder outside temp and some minute measure of contraction relative to the warmth of the house and time of year when i originally set the lenses on the lens boards (late spring).

I have a LF lens wrench, but hadn't figured on needing it in the field. Combination of cold temps and 1st time struggles made adaptation on the fly a bit tougher than it might have been as the sun was beginning to set. Can tell for sure that there's a real reason folks prefer folding LF cameras to my classic monorail as my photography backpack just ain't up to the job, and fortunately I had only about 20 yards to lug the stuff. Barely room for the camera let alone a lens hood contraption (which I need btw if I'm ever going to take shots at cloer angles to the sunlight).
One thing that continues to amaze me is the shift from a hobby where dirt was king to the point where we cooked it in an oven for use in modeling mountains (art of model railroading) to photography where we become clean freaks, and freak out at the dust and sand getting on our gear, in our darkrooms and on to a negative. Great thing about LF is it makes EVERY smaller format seem amazingly "easy" to set up and shoot.

BUT that said, I like the idea of spending more time to set up a landscape shot and get it the way you want without the compulsion to shoot just to finish a roll. Long ways to go before I know what I'm doing as a beginner, I'm far from the point where I want to mess with all the real strengths of a view camera, bellows adjustments, that S-thing, etc. as at this point I'm just trying to establish the routine of getting a shot and developing it in a new-to-me format. One step at a time. Thanks for all your help and encouragement.