1894 Empire State 8x10 view camera and my 1st post

[learning_jd]

Hello all,

I rediscovered my love for photography. It started with a 645 SLR medium format I got from a professional photographer. Then a medium format TLR which became my standard travel camera. Then a few 35mm. Then a 4x5 view camera that has totally blown me away it is so fun! Most of my cameras are older (20 or 30 plus years) but nice.

Well... I just stumbled on a 1894 Empire State 8x10 view camera. I have only talked with the seller and have not seen it (except in some small photo's). What I hear is that it could use a refinish on the wood, but is totally working. Has it's original lens that is clear and functional. The seller said it was purchased from the previous seller and it was the grandfather or great grandfather who owned a camera store way back then.

So my question - is this a viable camera to take out and collect photons? The seller said the 4 or so negatives taken were incredible. Is the camera delicate or can it be taken on trips and put to work?

I don't yet have details on the lens. It has a new focusing screen.

Any help, info, moral support would be most welcomed.

Jon

 

[Toffle]

I wish I could say something about the Empire State other than GO FOR IT.

...and welcome to APUG. We're all nuts. (Well, except for Sean, but if the server migration doesn't take soon, he'll be nuttier than a squirrel's pantry before you know it.)

 

[papagene]

Jon - first, hello and welcome to APUG. As far as the camera goes, if it is a good price for it... grab it and have fun.

 

[jimgalli]

Welcome to APUG Jon. YES! A VERY usable camera. And it's not a museum piece. If you use it to death, it's not an important loss. I take this approach with my own Kodak 2D (a later version of what you're talking about). When I'm done with it, there may not be much left but a half hour of BTU's.

8X10 cameras were sold without a lens most of the time. Anything that covers the format is usable, and the lensboards for that camera are simple to make.

 

[learning_jd]

Going to look at the Empire this weekend!

Thanks for the welcome!

I really cannot figure out why I am enjoying photography and large format in particular. Maybe large format is like fishing? Slower pace, contemplative, simply a joy to be outside? I don't know.

So the empire can be put to work? I am very happy to hear that - because I already ordered a box of film for it!

I have not heard back what kind of lens it has. I did a web search and I think I found an older ad of it mentioning "voightlandr". I've heard of that but know nothing more - like how they function, focal length, and so on. If it's original, is there a trick to how they operate?

Does anyone know if the camera has a full range of movements?

I believe the seller has a few film holders. Not sure if they are modern (plastic) or period (wood?). The seller also said the bellows is light-tight.

I sure hope it works out! I'm rather pumped up about it. Crazy!

Jon

 

[TheFlyingCamera]

Jon-

Wait until you see the camera and lens before getting too worked up over the lens itself. It could be one of thousands of possibilities. Note what the lens says on the rim around the front element, on the barrel, and on the shutter. There may or may not be information in any of those locations, although the shutter is almost certain to be labeled. Those details will help identify it and help us provide you with information on how the shutter operates. Bring your own camera with you and take pictures of the lens and shutter - if it's something unusual, the antique lens gurus can help identify it by some detail you might not think important when describing it from memory. What the film holders are doesn't really matter much, so long as they are light-tight and they fit the camera.

Congrats on the find, and best wishes on your upcoming shooting adventures. I think a big part of the joy of using these large and ultra-large cameras is the same reason people like antique cars - there's a connectedness to the process that's not there with an auto-everything whiz-bang-mobile. Sure, the 1922 Packard may not go as fast, get as good mileage, or keep you in climate-controlled comfort, but it is very much in evidence the fact that YOU are what's making the car do everything it does short of burn fuel.

 

[learning_jd]

Well I brought the Empire home and it has a lot of issues

It was difficult to evaluate the camera at the McDonald meeting place. But this evening I looked at it closely.

The lens is a Voigtlander COLLINEAR U.S. Pat. 567326 Series III No 64505 Focus 7 7/8 in. The rear lens element has the same No 64505 number. I see two very tiny air bubbles in the front glass, 1 very tiny bubble in the rear glass, but other than that, the glass is rather clean and no scratches. Does not look coated (not surprised). It seems to focus the light bulb (above me) fine on the table.

The lens is in a Wollensak Opt Co. shutter gizmo. It has two pistons. One seems to actuate (by air I guess) the shutter, the other was frozen but I got it unstuck. There is a dial on top that says AUTOMATIC with numbers 1 1/2 1/5 1/25 1/50 1/100 B and T. The shutter seems to work in B and for all of the timed values, the shutter seems to have one constant speed no matter where it is set. The diaphram seems to work fine. It has f-stops of 64 45 32 22 16 11 7.7 and that's all the numbers I see, but opens up a tad more. There is a PAT.FEB.6.1900 on the shutter release side and PAT.JULY23.1901 on the other piston side.

The bellows look original and at first glance, look pretty good. But they were advertised as being light tight - not even close. I hear there are ways to fix that but I've never done it.

The original ground glass was broken long ago but the seller had another made and it looks like it should work. (I have the camera in pieces so I have not yet tried to get an image on it.

Wood is cracked in a number of places and one piece is completely broken but still there and I can glue it.

I got 2 plastic/modern film holders and 1 wood one that looks old but the wood is in nice shape. The hinge on it is broken and one side has a sheet of film still in it that I exposed the first inch. Not sure if there is anything viable over the rest of it.

The rear standard has, I guess it called, the "double" swing (instead of a single one I read in some old online catalog). (It seems to move just like my 4x5) Also rear tilt. The front standard only has rise/fall.

There is a front dropdown bed (with a long crack that can be easily glued), and a separate rear bed that looks fine. A chunk of the bed was replaced by some unfinished wood but seems to function fine.

So there you have it. Not a show piece (and was not advertised as such) and my goal was never that, but for a viable field camera (this was advertised as perfect working condition). I know it's 117 years old and I am probably being way too critical for something like that. I did not pay an arm and a leg for it.

What should I do? It would be neat to get such an old girl working again but is it worth the trouble? Should I try to get my money back and put it towards a truly working camera. Thoughts?

Jon

 

[learning_jd]

Here are some shots of what I mentioned above...

 

[lesm]

Just think how good you'd feel to restore it then go out shooting with a real piece of photographic history. I'm a romantic, so for me I'd be sensing the ghosts of the previous owners and the joy they had with the camera and I'd feel a connection with them and with this grand old dame that I'd put effort into and breathed new life into so that she could work again. I'd also be trying to track down the previous owners and see if the family still has any of the photos from the old guys.

I'm guessing you're in the States. Winter's coming on. What else you gonna do on those cold, dark evenings? Unplug the TV and go for it!

Les

 

[JMC1969]

Jealous.

 

[TheFlyingCamera]

All in all an interesting bit of kit. I'd find someone who really knows how to work on those pneumatic shutters and send it off to be cleaned and adjusted - they may not be terribly accurate, but they're very reliable and consistent when in good working order. I have one on an 11x14 camera I have that while I'm pretty sure the speeds are all a bit longer than advertised on the dial, each speed seems to be 1/2 or 2x the time of the next one, which is what really counts. Which is pretty remarkable when you think of the lens being over 100 years old and still in original condition. As to air bubbles in the glass, those were seen as marks of quality in the glass of that time - a byproduct of the manufacturing process of good glass. Don't worry about them. I've got a couple in my Voigtlander Heliar and I can say from personal experience that they have NO adverse effect whatever on the image.

For fixing the bellows, there are a number of options. So long as they are in one piece, with no major rips or tears, just pinholes in the corners and such, you can get some black liquid rubber goop to paint on them that will seal them (I know Bostick & Sullivan carries it - http://www.bostick-sullivan.com/cart/product.php?productid=6&cat=0&page=1, others may do so as well). Another option is bookbinders tape, which you can find at most major art supply stores. It is a heavy-duty black cloth tape, designed to be flexible and withstand repeated bending and stretching. I would limit the use of the tape however (think small rips in the sides, or along seams, not corners) because eventually it builds up and makes the bellows too thick to collapse entirely within the originally designed space.

 

[learning_jd]

I decided to work on it - a lot

Attached are some pic's (did not compose them well - sorry) of the Empire after I cleaned and fixed it up somewhat. I glued broken pieces, re-attached the lens mount correctly, added some tape where the lens board edge (5" on a side) was partially broken to seal out a light leak, and waxed it up a little. Facing out to the backyard, I focused the view on the ground glass and stuck a cloth over my head and slightly tilted the rear standard. So far so good I say.

The short focal length of the lens gives an impressive wide angle view and really collapses the bellows. I did not see any glaring light leaks when I stuck my face in the back (after removing the ground glass unit). That unit fits either in landscape or portrait orientation.

I'm guessing the shutter fires around 1/50 sec.-ish. Seems slightly slower than 1/60 but I could be way off. The only other "speed" would be to put on bulb and manually fire long exposures. I cannot figure out how to do that via a air tube as fiddling around with that shutter - lifting pistons up/down does not appear to open the shutter and close it in a up/down motion. But manually operating the shutter works fine in bulb. Not sure how I can do that without wiggling the whole thing.

Jon

 

[TheFlyingCamera]

Usually the piston on the left as you look at the lens is the actuator, and the one on the right is the piston that regulates the speed. Sounds like the shutter needs to go for a good CLA. You could probably clean it yourself, but don't lubricate the pistons. Lubricating oil just interferes with the proper operation and will eventually gum the things up. Make sure if you send it off to someone to do a CLA that they understand this and have worked on these kinds of shutters before.

 

[Two23]

The shutter is very similar to a Unicom, the most common of that era. Someone might suggest cleaning it with lighter fluid, but don't do that! It might dissolve the shutter blades. Air bubble in lens were very common then. You can probably unscrew the elements and clean them, but be careful to not crossthread when putting back together. Check the bellows to see if light tight by going in a dark room and running a small flashlight through them. Look for tiny holes in the corners of the bellows especially. Not sure what holders that camera will use, might not be the standard type of today. The Kodak cameras were built for heavy commercial use. YOu could make a second lens board to put another lens on. I"m having one made for my 1880s half plate Watson & Son tailboard that can hold my lenses mounted on technical type 4x5 boards.


Kent in SD

 

[learning_jd]

Oh no! - Well the shutter/diaphram is now blown

Kent,

I heard about the lighter fluid and I wish I had read your post before... yep... it DID melt the blades. So it's toasted. Crud. Well... I guess I no longer need to worry about getting that to work anymore. The lens is still very fine but now has no shutter to speak of.

Now what?

Should I even attempt to find a working shutter for the lens?

Or chuck the lens and just hunt for another (perhaps more mordern) setup? I don't know much about assembling a working lens & board. I do know the board is 5" square. Be convenient if I could swap between my Calumet CC-400 (believe 4" square) and this one. Is the Voigtlander worth anything now?

Or maybe unload this Empire and look for a workhorse 8x10. I was not planning on restoring this camera. Just want a working 8x10.

Bummed.

Jon

 

[learning_jd]

Rest of it seems good though

The lens was not tight in the shutter at all and were just gently finger tight and easily unscrewed.

I checked and it does seem to take the modern (Fidelity Elite) film holders. Although I do have 1 older (I guess) wood film holder. The wood one has a bad (black thin cloth) hinge as one of the wood flaps comes off when you pull the dark slide on that side. The other side hinge is ok for now. The wood of the holder is in very good shape.

The bellows has some holes at the corners. I don't see any light when peering from the inside. I would think the bellows would have to be really extended to shine light onto the film - but maybe any light in the chamber starts fogging the film once the slide is pulled?

 

[Peter Simpson]

I heard about the lighter fluid and I wish I had read your post before... yep... it DID melt the blades. So it's toasted. Crud.

Hey, in for a penny, in for a pound! What's stopping you from crafting some new shutter blades?

//have personally destroyed some very expensive equipment

 

[TheFlyingCamera]

You can always still use the lens with a very slow film, a lens cap for a shutter, and/or neutral density filters to slow it down to hand-calculable exposures. You could always send the shutter off to SK Grimes to have them make you new shutter and aperture blades (at significant cost). Or mount a Packard shutter in front of it or behind it (depends on how far the rear element protrudes behind the lensboard).

 

[learning_jd]

It was the diaphram that melted - shutter still operates

I guess the diaphram blades are some sort of plastic and they melted into a horrible mess - largely removed from the shutter shell before fuzing.

"Lesson to all you kids out there... don't try this at home!"

But the shutter still functions - like it sort of did prior to the melt down. They seem a very thin metal. I put it back together and placed it back on the camera and it looks like I never touched it.

I understand if I could find really slow film and use some filters that many seconds and more - it would not matter if there was a shutter or not - as long as I could open it up (uncapping), count/time, close it up. But without a working diaphram, it does not sound like that is what I want to do. (I have not so slow Ilford 400 film being deliverd today)

I think I either need to get a complete shutter + lens + board, and goop up the holes in the bellows to make it operational... or look for something more user-friendly and already working. Which would be less expensive?

I really just want to be out experimenting with 8x10.

What would be a good lens or simple lens set/system? If there was a board adapter (make a 4" board fit a 5" square hole), I may be able to use a lens system on both this camera and the 4x5 I have. Maybe.

 

[TheFlyingCamera]

The least expensive (and fastest) would be to find a new(er) lens and just put that one up on the shelf to look pretty. If you want to try using your existing lens from the other camera, it is not difficult to make an adapter lensboard. Lensboards are not rocket science - they're easy enough to make to fit just about any camera. The next best option is to look for another more modern camera kit that is complete and functioning. Buying a used camera outfit is kind of like buying a used exotic sportscar - you are better off spending the extra money up front for something in as close to perfect condition as you can, as it will save you maintenance work in the long run.

 

[learning_jd]

Ansco Safety Film

In the wood 8x10 film holder I got with that camera was a sheet of film. I noticed it when I started pulling th dark slide. So I went and developed the mystery sheet knowing at least that part I exposed would be blown.

That part I exposed was blown, and the rest was not as exposed but there was nothing of an image. Darn. But I noticed the two square notches and I had not seen that before. So a bunch of Internet searches later and then looking at the edge of the film in better light - it's Ansco Safety Film. Thick stuff.

Kind of neat there was an old sheet of film in an old wood film holder.