16x20 fiber paper recommendation

Before I pull the trigger on some very expensive 16x20 Adox MCC 110 glossy fiber paper, I see some interesting choices for other fiber papers. Might be smart to get the feel of things in a 16x20 print before going on to the Adox. My choices at this time are Ilford Multigrade IV MGFB Glossy, Ilford Multigrade Warmtone, Ilford Multigrade Classic, Ultrafine Silver Eagle VC, and Foma MG Classic. Which might be a good way to go? I have no experience w/ any of these but the Adox. This will be my first attempt at 16x20.

This paper question is similar to one I asked earlier, but now want bigger than 11x14, am sure about using the Adox for final prints, and finally know which selection of papers to choose from initially. I've probably spent more time getting all this narrowed down than the time it will take to make the prints!

The Adox is a perfectly fine paper, if it's what you are used to in smaller sizes, and you like it's tonality, then it's the best choice for your 16x20's.

Do you like it in smaller sizes? In that case you'll like it in 16x20" as well. There are no silver bullets.

A given paper will be the same in all sizes, so you should gain some experience with some smaller prints before spending the big bucks. Try to make some prints using the same technique you would use with 16X20. If you are going to tube process 16X20, perfect your routine by tube processing some 8X10. If you do everything in trays, no problem.

IMHO Ilford Warmtone is the best , I use this paper for most projects.

If you wonder how the detail or micro-contrast will 'feel' at 16x20", it may be helpful to lift the enlarger head to give the large print dimension - but place the easel to hold the smaller (ie. your current) size of the same paper in some critical area of the large print size. A sectional enlargement as you might say. This will also let you experiment a little with raising the contrast slightly, checking sharpness of the enlarger lens and alignment etc. etc.

I just did a comparison: ADOX MCC 110 vs ADOX Variotone (warmtone) vs Ilford Warmtone, all glossy, all FB. And the winner is.... Ilford. Unfortunately, since it is by far the most expensive. I was hoping that ADOX would provide a similar image at a lower price, but it does not.

By which criteria did you chose the "winner"?

What I'm wondering about is how much more difficult it will be to wrangle the much larger and heavier papers in and out of the chemicals, and whether or not my negs will allow for those sort of enlargements with my current enlarger lens. Which is why I want to try something cheaper than the Adox papers initially.

I was hoping that someone had tried any of these and could give me their experiences. On my earlier question about the 11x14 papers the some of the Fomas were recommended. Might go w/ them or the Ilford Multigrade IV MGFB Glossy.

I did find this interesting test of fiber papers below. It changed my mind on ordering the Foma MG Classic. The tester found it to have greenish-yellow blacks when it wasn't toned. I won't be toning my prints so that one is eliminated, as is the Ultrafine. I had too many quality control problems with their films.

http://www.largeformatphotography.info/forum/archive/index.php/t-56685.html

Most multigrade warmtone papers are slightly greenish-yellow if untoned, at least those I've tried.

I've printed on MGIV and Foma MG in 12x16"/30x40cm and lots on Adox MCC 110 in 8x10". Although I really like the results I've gotten on MGIV/Foma MG I'm pretty sure I'll order MCC 110 in 30x40 cm for my next set of large prints. I just like that paper.

As for the worry with how much enlarging your film can take - remember that it's more a question of viewing distance than anything else. If people will be viewing the print from some distance I think you can get away with a lot.

With that said, my two current favorite prints (on MGIV, one matte & one glossy) are from handheld 35 mm shots, APX 100 souped in HC110, enlarged to 24x36 cm (on 12x16" paper) and they are magnificent. Grain, sure, but nothing disturbing.

What do you want to print ? I usually test the papers I have access to and pick the one that shows the light and mood of the scene I photographed. If you can get 8x10 sheets to see what the interesting areas look like, you'll see which one reflects why you took the picture.

momus said:

What I'm wondering about is how much more difficult it will be to wrangle the much larger and heavier papers in and out of the chemicals, and whether or not my negs will allow for those sort of enlargements with my current enlarger lens. Which is why I want to try something cheaper than the Adox papers initially.

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Momus, what format and film type are you thinking about? What enlarger and enlarging lens are you using now?
This will help us offer more opinions, I'm sure.

Things to think about that you have not mentioned:

1. How are you going to hold the paper flat?
2. How are you going to display the final prints?
3. Do you have the right trays for 16x20?
4. Do you have what is needed to wash prints that large?
5. Do you have a way to dry a print that large?
   I use window screens, face down for fiber prints.

Another consideration is contrast. I tested this in my own darkroom (Aristo head with V54 bulb and Ilford contrast filters) a few years ago by trying to make identical prints with MCC110, Foma Variant III, and Multigrade IV. Taking the MGIV as the baseline, I needed 1/2 grade harder (higher number) filter for the Foma, and a further 1/2 grade harder for the Adox. MGIV and MG Classic seem to me to be very close. So you might be better off with Ilford if the images you're printing need high-contrast filtration.

I've only used Foma, Ilford, and Oriental.

My only comment is that Ilford warm tone SEEMS thicker/heavier than the others, even with the same mill listing.

So in larger prints handling the ilford warmtone paper I would worry less about damaging it.

That said, Foma seems to go into the developer easier than ilford but "floppier" when transferring to other trays.

However I haven't tried the ADOX so I can't comment on that.

Good luck!

I'll be using 6x9 negs for these, along w/ some 6x6 that will obviously be cropped down to 16x16, which is a fairly large print. 120 negs can go much higher, but my pocket book can't :{ Not sure that any of my 35mm shots would hold up to 16x20. Maybe the Leica negs but I have doubts. My 90 lens is a Wollensak Raptor, which I think is a 4 element that should be all right if stopped down. We'll see! These are the largest prints I have made, so it's all new to me at this size. I never had an enlarger that could print the 6x9 negs.The prints won't really be 16x20, just whatever full frame/uncropped is at that size.

Most of my stuff is shot w/ a yellow filter, and I like contrasy and sort of over developed negs so contrast shouldn't be an issue. Maybe on the Voigtlander RF uncoated Heliar, which didn't go to a very high contrast even w/ a filter and hood. Leaning heavily toward the Ilford Classic and the Warmtone. The Adox MCC 110 is for the final prints after making 10 proofs w/ one of these papers because I love that paper. So easy to get good results from it.

I have a homemade easel to keep the prints flat while printing, and careful measuring of some $5.99 plastic bins at Walmart showed those will work fine. They were 16 1/2 by 24 so will use a little more chemistry but they're cheap and they're right down the road. I know how to wash fiber prints in a tub properly, but slowly, and they will probably be faux dry mounted w/ archival spray glue on foam board w/ screwed together 1x1's as a backing frame to keep them stable. Those were good questions. Years ago a LF shooter convinced me that no fiber print should be obscured by reflections under glass. Really appreciate the helpful comments.

I'd suggest some sort of print wash-aid as it will save you both time and water. If you are using foamboard as a mount then find the self-adhesive coated version and wrap the release paper round a tube, or dowel, of some sort to keep it under control as you place the prints down on the surface a few inches at a time. The spray-mount glue covers everything in glue (including your lungs), is less even and secure when coated, and it is more tricky to mount the print without air-bubbles.

Thanks. I have hypo. My usual way w/ big art work is to spray both sides of the surfaces lightly w/ glue (good to wear a painter's mask), let it dry to a tack, slowly and carefully lay down one end of the print onto the foam board, then slowly start curling it all the way down while taking a soft cloth and pressing it back and forth on the print as it is slowly lowered down to make sure air pockets are dispersed. Then I use a rolling pin and go over the glued print w/ a large piece of paper between it and the print, and finally set a large piece of glass on top of that for a day or two. The print won't come off.

StoneNYC said:

I've only used Foma, Ilford, and Oriental.

My only comment is that Ilford warm tone SEEMS thicker/heavier than the others, even with the same mill listing.

So in larger prints handling the ilford warmtone paper I would worry less about damaging it.

That said, Foma seems to go into the developer easier than ilford but "floppier" when transferring to other trays.

However I haven't tried the ADOX so I can't comment on that.

Good luck!

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Are you using Oriental (the new stuff) warm or cooltone? How do you like it.

JW PHOTO said:

Are you using Oriental (the new stuff) warm or cooltone? How do you like it.

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Yes it was the new stuff.

I honestly found it very nice, similar to ilford to be honest. The tones are subtly different. But really, it almost made me think that it was made by Ilford. Working with the paper was nice. I just decided I preferred the Ilford WT boxes plus they come in larger box counts.

The Oriental comes in envelopes, which I've never been a fan of for whatever reason. But at such a good price you should try some and see for yourself.

I'm about to try some Fujibrom WP AM print paper I picked up thanks to Sal's prodding in the recent Fuji Japan only group buy, and I'm curious to see how that comes out.

Sorry I can't comment much, I went on a printing spree and just tried a ton of paper until I found what I liked best (Foma Variant 123) and a second best (Ilford WT Semi-Matt).

And of course they discontinued the Foma...

Such is life...