16x20 and film options

sedboyscotty · Nov 26, 2014

Hi all,

This is my first post on this forum as I have only just started dreaming of going ULF.

I have decided to go with a 16x20inch camera, and with my limited woodwork skills I'm sure I can make something that works, it just might not look great.

I'll be purchasing the Wollaston Meniscus lenses to begin with to fine tune my skills and wait for money situation to change, so I can buy the supper sharp lenses.

What I'm asking her is what film options are people using? Where do U get your film? Are you using and other techniques like the old Harman direct positive paper. Is this stuff still around?

Any idea really would be appreciated. I'm looking forward to becoming apart of the ULF community

Chris

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LJH · Nov 26, 2014

What research have you already done? I ask this as it doesn't really appear that you have done much. Not a criticism; however, 60 seconds on Google will answer most of these questions...

sedboyscotty · Nov 26, 2014

I have actually done quite abit of research, but that was mainly on what size of camera I could afford and what lenes would actually fit and cover the film size.
I actually found the Wollaston Meniscus lenes link from this forum which has made this dream a possibility with my limited spare funds.
As for film, I know that ilford except orders once a year for b&w negatives but I have missed that for this year.
Now I just looking for other options

Thanks

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Dr Croubie · Nov 26, 2014

There are plenty of other options, like paper negs, X-Ray film (maybe not that big though?), plus coat-your-own wet-plates and dry-plates.
Ilford's ULF run is the easiest and most common way to get huge negatives new, but if you keep your eyes open on fleabay you might come across some old stuff.
Kodak also do (or at least, did) special orders via Canhams, but you've got to get $10-20k together to make it worth their while...

LJH · Nov 26, 2014

Have you worked out how you're going to process these images? And then print them?

What lens (lenses) are you considering further down the track?

Matt Fattori · Nov 26, 2014

I bought some 16x20 Adox CHS 100 II from Fotoimpex earlier this year...it actually worked out to be cheaper than Ilford's cheapest offering and is a fine film too. They go in and out of stock but should have it in at some point. CXS x-ray sells large film but maybe not that big. Harman DP is gone though maybe there are still some rolls kicking around? Expensive! Macodirect sells Imago DP but in what sizes I'm not sure. Probably best to start with paper negs...you can try reversal processing!

bernard_L · Nov 27, 2014

I see to the left of your post that you describe yourself as 4x5 shooter. So why not build, in a first step, a 8x10 camera? That is already 4 times the negative are aof 4x5. Some of the issues might be easier to solve, or, if not fully solved, still be less than catastrophic.

You also might get useful information from:
http://www.largeformatphotography.info/forum/

LJH · Nov 27, 2014

bernard_L said:
I see to the left of your post that you describe yourself as 4x5 shooter. So why not build, in a first step, a 8x10 camera? That is already 4 times the negative are aof 4x5. Some of the issues might be easier to solve, or, if not fully solved, still be less than catastrophic.

You also might get useful information from:
http://www.largeformatphotography.info/forum/

Or even 11x14" if you're intent on shooting ULF. Lot more options... I'd like to read why you've chosen this particular size.

One thing I'll add to the ULF thing: you'll get a whole lot of opinion about how difficult it is to transition from LF to ULF. I went straight from 6x17cm to 7x17 inch with not issues. Don't hesitate to try it, but understand it (somewhat) before jumping in the deep end!

sedboyscotty · Nov 27, 2014

I have shoot 5x4 quite some time ago, but I have spent years shooting 6x17 when I had time off from my job as a newspaper photographer in Australia.

How I got to 16x20? Well when I found the affordable Wollaston meniscus lenses they seemed to have a few more options to cover the 16x20 image circle with plenty of movements

http://www.re-inventedphotoequip.com/Data_files/Coverage-1.pdf

16x20 was the biggest I could go while still having a few lens options.

I do love the idea of big prints, and I really love the idea of one off wet plate images. 16x20 just seemed to fit well.

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scheimfluger_77 · Nov 28, 2014

I have yet to try this myself, but some have had success processing Arista Ortho Litho film as continuous tone and it's readily available from Freestyle in sizes to 20 x 24.

ic-racer · Nov 28, 2014

Wollaston meniscus lenses? In terms of image quality you will be better off just enlarging 4x5" negatives to 16x20" unless you are after some special effects. The difficult elements of 16x20 camera construction from scratch are the film holders and the ground glass back. For example you will need to figure which t-distance you want to use and which exact film dimensions to use for the film holders, if you are going to make these yourself. The rest does not require as much skill to construct (front and rear standards, tripod, bellows, lens).

(Nathan Appel's 16x10)

Jim Noel · Nov 28, 2014

Since obviously your funds are limited to some extent, green sensitive x-ray film is probably your best bet. Ortho-lith film is also a possibility but learning to expose and develop it to long scale is a little steeper than x-ray. Read ALL of the posts on LFF under "Images made with x-ray film".

StoneNYC · Nov 28, 2014

Guys, stop telling the guy how to NOT use 16x20, let's help him find the answer HE/SHE wants not what YOU want.

You can get Ilford HP5+ and FP4+ and I believe Delta100 in 16x20 but could be wrong on the delta.

Also the Adox CHS 100 II as mentioned earlier.

Ortho lith film is available but it's a pain to use, but it's an option.

You have X-Ray film, double sided available in that size I believe and single sided available in 14x17 from time to time as special order.

All Kodak films can theoretically be cut in 16x20 but the minimum group orders are not small, but it's possible.

So there are some.

Many normal B&W papers available but not the direct positive stuff currently, they are sourcing a new version but it's not definite yet.

Good luck!

Good luck.

Ari · Nov 28, 2014

I've seen some images made with Reinhold meniscus lenses that were quite sharp and of very good quality when stopped down.
That would be my first choice as well were I to make the jump to ULF.
Good luck, there are a few options for film, as you can see; the hard part will be making the holders and back, but again, there is a lot of information online about those aspects of camera-building.

ic-racer · Nov 28, 2014

Ari said:
I've seen some images made with Reinhold meniscus lenses that were quite sharp and of very good quality when stopped down.
That would be my first choice as well were I to make the jump to ULF.
Good luck, there are a few options for film, as you can see; the hard part will be making the holders and back, but again, there is a lot of information online about those aspects of camera-building.

I may be underestimating that lens, do you have any links to images.

Pioneer · Nov 28, 2014

Go for it! Photography is to be enjoyed and sometimes it is just a lot more fun when you go big. If that is your vision then honor your muse.

Xmas · Nov 29, 2014

sedboyscotty said:
I have actually done quite abit of research, but that was mainly on what size of camera I could afford and what lenes would actually fit and cover the film size.
I actually found the Wollaston Meniscus lenes link from this forum which has made this dream a possibility with my limited spare funds.
As for film, I know that ilford except orders once a year for b&w negatives but I have missed that for this year.
Now I just looking for other options

Thanks

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The Ilford order process starts Jan/Feb when Ilford may comit for 2015 the film appears in your hand Sept/Oct 2015.

Then you need to get a year's supply for 2015-16 so start hoarding funds now. You know all this but...

Some of the 2013 batch of 16x20 hung around in a local shops fridge until April14. It was very tempting.

MartinP · Nov 29, 2014

Is a meniscus lens a single element? It must be possible to make something better than that surely?

As an initial step I would have suggested making negs with normal graded paper, then contact-printing, before going on to film. That is because a mistake in user-routine, or a defect in the camera, will still show up yet will be far cheaper (and quicker to find) with paper. This is based only on some 4x5 and 8x10 pinholing though, so better listen to the experienced operators.

angusparkengusparker · Nov 30, 2014

I'd recommend 14x17 instead of 16x20 because it's the largest square size that you can get xray film in. Regular film is very expensive per sheet approx $30 in 16x20. The added benefit is that you'll have a few more lens options. Plus 14x17 prints nicely using contact printing on 16x20 paper. Kodak Ektascan BR/A is a single side emulsion Xray film - a bit hard to find but worth it. From time to time on the large format forum people buy 500 sheets a share the sheets out in 100 packs. Otherwise green xray film is easy to find in 14x17.

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StoneNYC · Nov 30, 2014

angusparkengusparker said:
I'd recommend 14x17 instead of 16x20 because it's the largest square size that you can get xray film in. Regular film is very expensive per sheet approx $30 in 16x20. The added benefit is that you'll have a few more lens options. Plus 14x17 prints nicely using contact printing on 16x20 paper. Kodak Ektascan BR/A is a single side emulsion Xray film - a bit hard to find but worth it. From time to time on the large format forum people buy 500 sheets a share the sheets out in 100 packs. Otherwise green xray film is easy to find in 14x17.

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Agree with everything you say about X-Ray except that sheets are square... Neither 14x17 nor 16x20 are square.

But the OP wasn't asking about x-ray and doesn't seem to care much about cost of the film but it is a factor to consider for some.

angusparkengusparker · Nov 30, 2014

StoneNYC said:
Agree with everything you say about X-Ray except that sheets are square... Neither 14x17 nor 16x20 are square.

But the OP wasn't asking about x-ray and doesn't seem to care much about cost of the film but it is a factor to consider for some.

Ok, squarish of course not square. There is I believe 14x36 xray film - now that would be a pano camera! OP seems cost conscious given the use of a cheaper lens. The real cost of ownership for ULF is the film not the camera if you are using real film as opposed to the xray stuff

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Ari · Nov 30, 2014

ic-racer said:
I may be underestimating that lens, do you have any links to images.

Yes, just a sec while I find it...

Ok, post #51 on this page: http://www.largeformatphotography.i...November-2014-Portraits&p=1186240#post1186240

Mdarnton posted a photo of a middle-aged gentleman wearing glasses.

You may only have mis-underestimated the lens.

sedboyscotty · Dec 3, 2014

Thanks for the options, they have been great.
I think I might have to drop down to 11x14, so I can afford to shoot a lot more. Film seems to be around $8 a sheet at 11x14, which is a heck of a lot better than $30 a sheet for 16x20.

By dropping down to a smaller camera size I'll get more options in the lenses for the camera. I do like the look of these lenses create, but I do intend to buy some lenses in the future that are real lenses. I assume that by dropping down to 11x14 I'll be much more likely to find affordable lenses that has a image circle big enough to cover my film.

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LJH · Dec 3, 2014

Spot on. Plenty to chat about (soon!!)...

StoneNYC · Dec 3, 2014

sedboyscotty said:
Thanks for the options, they have been great.
I think I might have to drop down to 11x14, so I can afford to shoot a lot more. Film seems to be around $8 a sheet at 11x14, which is a heck of a lot better than $30 a sheet for 16x20.

By dropping down to a smaller camera size I'll get more options in the lenses for the camera. I do like the look of these lenses create, but I do intend to buy some lenses in the future that are real lenses. I assume that by dropping down to 11x14 I'll be much more likely to find affordable lenses that has a image circle big enough to cover my film.

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Be careful to understand that Ektascan is only available in 8x10 and by special bulk order in 14x17. The only X-ray film that is single sided. And it's also a T-grain style emulsion for all intents and purposes.

So all other x-ray films are DOUBLE SIDED so there are tons of things to consider about that with having to waste a lot of fixer, and dealing with scratches and density changes etc with your exposure.

Time is valuable too, don't be penny wise and pound foolish.

Good luck with your choice.

16x20 and film options

sedboyscotty

LJH

sedboyscotty

Dr Croubie

LJH

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ic-racer

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StoneNYC

Ari

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ic-racer

Pioneer

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MartinP

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StoneNYC

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Ari

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16x20 and film options

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