150mm: Nikkor vs. Apo-Sironar-S

Prime · Sep 14, 2002

Eventually, I'd like to buy a modern 150mm lens for making close-ups with my Tachihara. I'd be photographing things such as food - often at or near 1:1.

I've heard that the Rodenstock Apo-Sironar-S is better than other 150s (don't remember why, though). Is this the case, and if so, why? Would there be a noticeable difference between the Rodenstock and the Nikkor for macro photography? I'd like to get the Nikkor (cheaper), but not if it's significantly inferior for my purposes. Any help appreciated.

Jorge · Sep 14, 2002

If you are not locked into either a Nikkor or a Rodenstock, I use a 150 apo-symmar which is very sharp, small, light and I think is the cheapest lens Schnider has. somewhere in the $600 range new! so check it out, as a user I absolutely recommend it

b.e.wilson · Sep 15, 2002

I don't know about the particular lens to which you refer, but in general apo lenses perform better at macro distances than non-apo lenses because they are better corrected and suffer from less chromatic aberation (color fringing).

But even apo lenses won't work as well at macro distances (focal length = lens-to-subject distance) as they will at the design distance (focal length = lens-to-film distance).

paul owen · Sep 15, 2002

The Rodenstock S has a greater image circle than the N version. I've seen transparencies taken on both and I couldn't see any difference in image quality - but if you want big movements then the S is the answer. If you don't need this (major movements) then the 150 Apo Symmar is awesome! But the best kept secret......the Fuji 150! What a sharp lens! With plenty of coverage and small in size! You may be interested to know that Robert White in the UK has a good sized inventory of Fuji lenses (demo stock) at CHEAP prices!!

Prime · Sep 15, 2002

Thanks very much, everyone!

b.e.wilson brought up a good point about apochromatic lenses. I'm researching APO lenses now.

paul, do you know whether or not the Fuji 150 CM-W is apochromatic?

paul owen · Sep 15, 2002

No idea if its an apo design - although probably not! But don't dismiss a lens simply because its not of the "latest" design! The Fuji LF lenses have developed a "cult" like following!! They (apparently) have the best multicoating of any LF lens (Fuji EBC). I'm very happy with the Fuji - all my other lenses are Schneiders (all latest designs) and the Fuji is there with the best of them!

b.e.wilson · Sep 15, 2002

For Fuji lens info, refer to http://www.thalmann.com/largeformat/fujinon.htm

For Nikkor lens info, see http://homepages.tig.com.au/~cbird/nikkor/niklf.html

These sites are up because of the paucity of info provided by the manufactureres websites.

Sean · Sep 15, 2002

I thought Nikkor lenses must be pretty good because John Sexton uses them a lot. Then I found out he doesn't use the stock variety. He sends them back to Nikkor for custom alignment work, until they are perfect, otherwise he won't say that he uses nikkor. Seems a bit suspect. I suppose it could be a crazy rumor tho!

Prime · Sep 16, 2002

Thanks very much! My options are growing. One thing that I'm a bit unsure of is what to do the my filters. Right now I have three lenses (one LF, 2 35mm) that take 52mm, 67mm, and 77mm filters. Also, I have 52mm, 77mm, and 82mm filters, and a rabbit-like collection of step-up rings. I'm reluctant to part with the (hard-earned) filters in order to standardize with new ones. Any ideas on filters/holders that are high-quality and relatively inexpensive? Thanks again.

HuwEvans · Sep 16, 2002

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (b.e.wilson @ Sep 15 2002, 05:08 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>... in general apo lenses perform better at macro distances than non-apo lenses because they are better corrected and suffer from less chromatic aberation (color fringing).
</td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'>
I would beg to differ here. Apochromatic correction, like the correction of any aberration, is optimized for particular distances, or equivalently magnifications. That may make them good close up, or it may not. For example the Apo-Ronars are, IIRC, apo at 1:1, as you would expect for true symmetrical process lenses.

OTOH, the Apo-Sironars are designed for lower magnification work. The 'S' type are optimized for 1:10, and the 'N' type for 1:20 - again IIRC. Thus the Apo-Sironar S lenses make for better studio use, whereas the 'N' lenses may well be better in the field. Certainly neither can be assumed to be good for macro work simply for being designated as Apo lenses - it all depends at what magnification they are apochromatically corrected.

b.e.wilson · Sep 16, 2002

You are quite correct, apo lenses are fully corrected only at the design distances. But being fully corrected (three-color correct) at any distance means they have a better chance at being better corrected at macro distances than lenses that are corrected for two colors at design distances. I'm sure there are paritally- or uncorrected lenses that perform wonderfully at macro distances, but in general, apo lenses do a little better. This observation may be due to the fact that there are a lot more apo-corrected long lenses than short ones, and long lenses always do better at macro distances. I have never experimented with wide-angle macro work enough to test the apo vs. non-apo lens differences.

HuwEvans · Sep 17, 2002

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (b.e.wilson @ Sep 17 2002, 04:49 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>... being fully corrected (three-color correct) at any distance means they have a better chance at being better corrected at macro distances than lenses that are corrected for two colors at design distances.</td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'>
Well, I'm not sure that follows - an improvement at one point on the scale does not mean that the lens's performance is improved elsewhere (although it may be so in particular cases).

In general, there are many more aberrations for the lens designer to deal with than just chromatic. For example, I would expect something like a G-Claron to be better at 1:1 than, say, an Apo-Symmar, simply because it is optimized for close range use, and things like coma, spherical aberrations, astigmatism, and field curvature (maybe irrelevant except for copy work) will all be better.

Certainly I prefer my 210mm G-Claron over my 240mm Sironar-N (which is the same as the Apo-Sironar N) for close work. Though perhaps if I had the Sironar S instead I might think differently.

Well, whatever. On the basis that a difference is only a difference if it makes a difference, perhaps this is just splitting hairs.

gwrhino · Sep 19, 2002

While I do not own a 150Nikkor, I do own a 210 Nikkor W, and I have found that does not perform well for close-up work. I was told once that the Nikkor W's are not symmetrical and therefore do not perform well at close distances....(I have no direct knowledge of this as I am not really interested in optical design; I realize that it surely may be possible that he didn't know what he was talking about) but, as mentioned earlier, I would have to agree with his assessment, at least in regard to the 210W. I do have a Rodenstock 150 N, which I use for virtually all my close-up work, and find it to be marvelous.

b.e.wilson · Sep 19, 2002

To test lens symmetry, close down the aperture a bit and look at the size of the opening from the front and back of the lens. If they are the same size, it's symmetric.

Prime · Sep 20, 2002

Back to square one. But better to be in square one than to have a lens that I'm not happy with. I'm leaning against the Nikkor because I haven't heard many favorable reviews, and because the other three get raves. Thanks for the input.

HuwEvans · Sep 21, 2002

Do think about a G-Claron, won't you. Unlike the others mentioned it is actually designed for close work, and is significantly cheaper than any of them.

Prime · Sep 21, 2002

HuwEvans,

Thanks for the suggestion. I checked out the G-Claron on bhphoto.com. Their desription:

"The G-Claron is a lens of symmetrical design with six elements in four groups, optimized for 1:1 reproduction. The normally used range of linear magnifications is 5:1 to 1:5. The G-Claron may also be used for distances up to infinity by stopping down to f/22 or less. For photographic work the G-Claron can be used up to an angle of 64 degrees and is free from mechanical vignetting at f/16 and smaller apertures."

I usually photograph macro subjects at very wide apertures, so I'm wondering whether or not I could use a G-Claron, based on the above quote. I'd probably want to use it at f/9 to f/16, but not much beyond that. How much "mechanical vignetting" are they talking about?

HuwEvans · Sep 21, 2002

Prime,
there is certainly some mechanical vignetting below f/16, but not more than you would get with any of the other lenses you have mentioned - they will all have mechanical vignetting at apertures larger than f/22. Most LF lenses require to be stopped down to about f/22 to be completely free from vignetting within the stated circle of coverage. At any rate, I would think you might just detect a slight falling off in illumination towards the edges with the lens focussed at infinity on a 4x5, but close up? I doubt it - you really wouldn't be using enough of the coverage to see much variation.

Prime · Sep 22, 2002

That's very helpful to know. Thank you. Do you know what the image circle is when the lens is wide open at f/9?

HuwEvans · Sep 22, 2002

Well, it's very difficult to give a straight answer to that, because the circle of coverage is generally defined for a stopped down working aperture - usually f/22. Wide open you will certainly get illumination across the same angle, but it will not be even because of vignetting. Again this will apply more or less equally to all the lenses mentioned.

Usually the published limit seems to be defined to be the angle from the lens axis at which the 20lpmm MTF curve (either radial or tangential) falls to zero. I say 'seems', because I have never come across any statement by any of the lens manufacturers as to exactly how they determine it. I came to my own conclusion on the question from examining many of the published MTF curves.

You can find the MTF curves for the 150mm G-Claron here , as well as curves for the Apo-Symmar close by. Rodenstock MTF curves can be found on Paul Butzi's site here. I can't remember whether the Rodenstock curves include wide aperture performance, but the Schneider ones certainly do. I'm afraid I can't recall ever seeing published curves for the Nikkors.

150mm: Nikkor vs. Apo-Sironar-S

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