150mm Large Format Lenses - Some Advice Please

Brian M Harris · Jul 16, 2018

Hi,

I have been shooting large format for about 3 months, I use a Horseman 4x5 mono rail camera with a Schneider 180mm lens.
in my home studio. 99% of what I do is portraits of one kind or another (fashion, art nude, regular etc etc). I cant deny I have been well and truly hooked by large format.

I am shortly going to purchase a Wista Field RF camera for location work (portraits/fashion etc), I already have Schneider Symar 180mm APO Multi Coated Lenses.

I am after a second lens, which will probably be a 150mm, there are a quite a few Nikons, Fujinions and Schneider 150mm lens about at reasonable prices. But these seem to be non multi coated and in the case of the Schneider non APO as well.

Apologies for asking such a dumb ass question, but whats the difference, my heart is set on another Schneider !!

Any comments/opinions would be helpful.

Thanks

Brian

AgX · Jul 16, 2018

I wonder why one would need an Apo lens for portraiture at all.

miha · Jul 16, 2018

If you haven't seen this article before....http://www.largeformatphotography.info/portrait-lenses/

jeffreyg · Jul 16, 2018

I am far from an expert on equipment but I have been using 4x5 (Toyo field camera) mainly for landscape and still - life. I have a Nikkor 120, Schneider 210 and a Fujinion 300tele. All are very good for my use. I also have a very old Schneider 135 that someone gave me which gives a slightly soft effect that works well with some subjects. The differences would be in the image circle and depend on the movements you would require. I doubt that the Wista will have as long a bellows and degree of movements your rail has. I have a rear extension that I can put on the Toyo. My guess is that your 180 could probably be your normal and you might consider a wider angle such as a 90 and perhaps a tele then you would cover more bases. I use black and white so I use filters at times and have not worried about multi coating which my lenses might have. The size of your home studio might have some constraints on what will work there.

Probably someone more knowledgeable will give better advice.

http://www.jeffreyglasser.com/

Dan Fromm · Jul 16, 2018

Brian, you are overthinking things. That or you want the absolutely best instead of the much better than good enough. Its hard to make a bad mistake with any 150/5.6 plasmat type from, in alphabetical order, Fujinon, Nikon, Rodenstock and Schneider. The worst of the lot, and it has satisfied many, is Schneider's convertible Symmar. Buy on condition and price, not on reputation.

Richard Man · Jul 16, 2018

I have shot over 800+ sheets of 4x5 color portraits in the last 3-4 years. Most are taken with the Cooke PS945, a few from Fujinon 150mm, and very few with a 150mm APO Sironar S.

The Cooke is a highly specialized lens, so I think most people will not consider it.

The Fujinon is as good as it comes. I have a neg scanned and printed to 5ft wide and it's still sharp as anything.

So just pick any modern plasmat that fits your budget in the size that you like. You will not be disappointed.

BradS · Jul 16, 2018

I think that all Schneider Symmar, Rodenstock Sironar and Fujinon-W lenses made after about 1975 or so are multi-coated....even if it isn't engraved as such on the barrel.

removed account4 · Jul 16, 2018

i would imagine an apo lens is kind of overkill for what you are doing, im guessing you aren't doing high end product / still life photography in color for ad agents? i hope dan will correct me if i am wrong apo chromatic lenses are corrected for spherical and chromatic aberration, something typically not looked for in a portrait lens ( see previous comment about the cooke lens )
one lens that isn't extremely common and Dan didn't mention it is a computar symmetrigon ( 150.f6.3 ) sharp as nails stopped down
and nice out of focus areas open. if you can find one grab it. its coated and modern...

you might also consider a cheap older lens to play with. uncoated tessar or plasmats from the 1950s or before then
often give a nice portrait ( both color and b/w ) but obviously a different signature than a schneider apo 150...

modern is nice but sometimes not as nice as older..
good luck !
john

ps a 6" ( 150 ) ilex seminat is my favorite 150...

Sal Santamaura · Jul 16, 2018

Brian M Harris said:
...I am shortly going to purchase a Wista Field RF camera...I am after a second lens, which will probably be a 150mm, there are a quite a few Nikons, Fujinions and Schneider 150mm lens about at reasonable prices...

All other discussion and factors aside, if you plan to use that Wista's rangefinder, be aware that it's set up for the Nikkor W.

Peter Schrager · Jul 16, 2018

Ektar..152mm...great lens and I've had them all

BradS · Jul 16, 2018

Peter Schrager said:
Ektar..152mm...great lens and I've had them all

and it is neither multi-coated nor APO corrected.

DREW WILEY · Jul 16, 2018

Portrait photographers often seek lenses with a bit more "personality" than the latest ultra-sharp multicoated optics. But if you do want a very crisp modern plasmat, there are a lot of Fuji 150's in great condition available from Japanese dealers at remarkably low prices. Same for 210's. These are every bit as good as German lenses, and all but the earliest ones with inside lettering and Seiko shutters will be multicoated. "Apo" is a relative expression and basically marketing hype when it comes to general purpose photography lenses. True apo standards apply more to graphics reproduction lenses, which would be ridiculous overkill for any routine purpose. Any post-1970 lens from the big four (Schneider, Rodenstock, Fuji, Nikon) is
going to be superbly color corrected.

Oren Grad · Jul 16, 2018

BradS said:
I think that all Schneider Symmar, Rodenstock Sironar and Fujinon-W lenses made after about 1975 or so are multi-coated....even if it isn't engraved as such on the barrel.

This is not correct. The original Schneider Symmars and Rodenstock Sironars are not multicoated. Multicoating arrived midstream during the next generation, Symmar-S and Sironar-N. Those Symmar-S lenses that are multicoated are inscribed "multicoating". Those Sironar-N lenses that multicoated are inscribed "MC".

BradS · Jul 16, 2018

Oren Grad said:
This is not correct. The original Schneider Symmars and Rodenstock Sironars are not multicoated. Multicoating arrived midstream during the next generation, Symmar-S and Sironar-N. Those Symmar-S lenses that are multicoated are inscribed "multicoating". Those Sironar-N lenses that multicoated are inscribed "MC".

and when did that transition happen?

Michael W · Jul 16, 2018

150 is pretty close to 180. I wonder if the 150 will bring enough difference in framing for you? it's like going from 60mm to 50mm in 35mm.

randyB · Jul 17, 2018

You might consider a 135mm, noticeably wider angle of view. Also get a Wista lens board for the 180 so you can use it for the closeups.

DREW WILEY · Jul 17, 2018

Even multicoating is misunderstood. For example, G-Claron lenses are a plasmat design better corrected than Schneider's general-purpose plasmats like the Symmar series, but are only single-coated. And some people prefer older single-coated Fujis because they tend to have larger usable image circles than the newer equivalents. Still, for me, it boils down to specific application. For landscape work, I like the sheer precision of G-Clarons, but for portraiture really prefer the rendering of earlier Symmar S lenses, which have milder background blur. Similarly, many portrait studios chose Fuji L-series single-coated tessars over their hard-sharp plasmat offerings. All of these are excellently corrected for color, but having the very highest contrast lenses can sometimes be a liability in portrait work. Just depends on your style and type of clients. Not everyone wants every little skin detail accentuated.

Oren Grad · Jul 17, 2018

BradS said:
and when did that transition happen?

I think early '80s, but I don't have documentation to support that.

EDIT: Just taking a quick peek now at eBay listings, I see a Sironar-N non-MC with S/N 100xxxxx, which dates to ~1979, and an MC with S/N 103xxxxx, which dates to ~1981, so that would put it around 1980, at least for Rodenstock. I think Schneider was similar.

BradS · Jul 17, 2018

Oren Grad said:
I think early '80s, but I don't have documentation to support that.

You're right, I was wrong.....excerpted from the FAQ's on Schneider's web site....

8. When did Schneider begin multi-coating lenses?

The first Symmar-S lens to be multi-coated was the Symmar-S 150mm, serial number 13,014,862 in March 1977. The 210mm followed and then the rest of the focal lengths were completed by early 1978. The Super-Angulons were multi-coated in the summer of 1978 beginning with the f/5.6 series. The f/8 lenses were multi-coated in late '78- early '79. Apo-Componon HM lenses have been multi-coated since their introduction in 1986.

I admit, my statement was a swag based upon the introduction of the Asahi (Pentax) Super-Multi-Coated Takumar in 1971.
I wonder why Schneider waited so long.

Oren Grad · Jul 17, 2018

BradS said:
8. When did Schneider begin multi-coating lenses?...

That's great, thanks for digging it up. So I was also wrong in pegging Schneider a bit late.

BradS said:
I wonder why Schneider waited so long.

Beyond the intuition that market conditions - sales volume, customer expectations, overall pace of innovation - must have been different in the LF world compared to 35mm, I don't know the answer to that.

DREW WILEY · Jul 17, 2018

Schneider was actually a bit behind Rodenstock and Fuji in terms of full modernization of their facilities. My brother told me that back when he was selling Rollei and
Linhof gear. I've got a big 30X40 Cibachrome on the wall behind me taken with a single-coated 210 Symmar S using old Ektachrome 64 4x5 film. Most people think it's extremely sharp and saturated, especially compared to the big inkjet prints which are now everywhere. But my later Cibas from later 8x10 film and Fuji A lenses, and significantly improved darkroom gear, are far crisper. So it's all relative. I never did buy into that "normal viewing distance" nonsense. But I doubt any portrait photographer would even want prints that sharp. Different ballgame.

Brian M Harris · Jul 17, 2018

miha said:
If you haven't seen this article before....http://www.largeformatphotography.info/portrait-lenses/

Brilliant and very helpful !

Brian M Harris · Jul 17, 2018

Sal Santamaura said:
All other discussion and factors aside, if you plan to use that Wista's rangefinder, be aware that it's set up for the Nikkor W.

Hi yes I am aware of this, adjustments can be made for non Nikkor lenses according to the manual - thanks

Brian M Harris · Jul 17, 2018

Dan Fromm said:
Brian, you are overthinking things. That or you want the absolutely best instead of the much better than good enough. Its hard to make a bad mistake with any 150/5.6 plasmat type from, in alphabetical order, Fujinon, Nikon, Rodenstock and Schneider. The worst of the lot, and it has satisfied many, is Schneider's convertible Symmar. Buy on condition and price, not on reputation.

Thank you, and yes I sometimes do overthink things !

Ian Grant · Jul 18, 2018

BradS said:
You're right, I was wrong.....excerpted from the FAQ's on Schneider's web site....

8. When did Schneider begin multi-coating lenses?

The first Symmar-S lens to be multi-coated was the Symmar-S 150mm, serial number 13,014,862 in March 1977. The 210mm followed and then the rest of the focal lengths were completed by early 1978. The Super-Angulons were multi-coated in the summer of 1978 beginning with the f/5.6 series. The f/8 lenses were multi-coated in late '78- early '79. Apo-Componon HM lenses have been multi-coated since their introduction in 1986.

I admit, my statement was a swag based upon the introduction of the Asahi (Pentax) Super-Multi-Coated Takumar in 1971.
I wonder why Schneider waited so long.

The term Multi coating itself is misleading as some lenses have had multiple coatings since the 1940's and it was quite common in the late 1960s and predates the Pentax use of Zeiss technology Super Multi Coating. I had a Rodenstock Sironar that had superb coatings and they were equal to later MC coated Sironar N or Grandagon N coating in terms of effectiveness, and colour fidelity.

MC became just a marketing hype like the term APO, didn't necessarily mean lenses were significantly better than their predecessors.

Ian

150mm Large Format Lenses - Some Advice Please

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