15 or 16 shots (6x4.5)

abruzzi

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My Bronica ETRSi shoots 15 shots on a roll of 120 film. My Fuji GA645Zi shoots 16 shots on a roll of 120 film. My Konica Pearl III also shoots 16 shots on a roll.

I'm curious is Bronica the only company that did 15 shot rolls on 6x4.5 cameras?

I assume that all red window cameras are 16 shot because thats what is on the backing paper. I've read that the last film Pentax 645 had a system item where you could switch between 15 or 16, and it would adjust the spacing accordingly.

What do other geard advance 6x4.5 cameras do, like all the other Fujis or Mamiya, or reducing backs on larger cameras (Bronica SA and GS both had available 645 backs, I'm pretty sure there was an option for Hasselblad V cameras, Rollei SLR cameras, and others.)
 

Dali

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Mamiya and Fujica 645 cameras give 15 shots only, not 16.
 

MattKing

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Dali said:
Mamiya and Fujica 645 cameras give 15 shots only, not 16.
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Actually, Mamiya 645 gave 15 shots, but the 6x4.5 backs for the RB67 gave 16.
 

Donald Qualls

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The 6x4.5 roll film holder for RB67 gives 16 (at least the Pro version I have, I presume the later ones are the same).
 
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abruzzi

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Its interesting that there is no real pattern to it. My Fuji does 16 but older ones do 15. Bronica ETR does 15, but Bronica RF does 16.

I actually like 15 a little better. I use the same printfile sleeves that I use for 6x6 12 frames. Three vertical channels that hold 5 645 frames or 4 6x6 frames. for the fuji I usne the printfile sleeve that has 4 horizontal strips--4 rows of 4. And since the Fuji default to portrait, the horizontal strps match that.

Except for some oddball setups (like shooting 6x4.5 on a Bronca 6x7 GS-1) it seems like the responses have hit most of the cameras I was curious about.
 

Tom Taylor

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Pentax 645NII:
 

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MattKing

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The 15 exposure cameras were probably designed with the transparency film users and labs in mind - the slightly larger space makes problems with automated slide mounting less frequent.
 
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abruzzi

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MattKing said:
The 15 exposure cameras were probably designed with the transparency film users and labs in mind - the slightly larger space makes problems with automated slide mounting less frequent.
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Thats an interesting theory. I was wondering why 15 (not that I mind), and the best guess that I had was with the move to geared advance, maybe 16 was just a little hard to achieve reliably, but then my Konica Pearl III was very reliable with it weird little geared advance appendage and was pretty early.
 

ant!

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I think I read something in the Pentax 645n manual about set to 15 for perfect frame flatness, especially when stored mid-film longer. I never had a problem with that set to 16. The old Pentax 645 was 15, the newer gave the choice, if I remember correctly.

My Zeiss Super ikonta takes 11 instead of 12 6x6 frames..
 
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abruzzi

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ant! said:
My Zeiss Super ikonta takes 11 instead of 12 6x6 frames..
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Thats unusual. I've never heard of 6x6 being anything other than 12 frames. Actually outside 645, 6x9 is always 8, 6x7 is always 10, and 6x6 is always 12. 6x8 is 9, I guess? I've never seen 6x8 other than a numbr of Fujis, and maybe a Mamiya 67 back?
 

Donald Qualls

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ant! said:
My Zeiss Super ikonta takes 11 instead of 12 6x6 frames..
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So did mine (532/16) when it was new -- but I fixed it. Now it does 12.

This happened because it uses the 6x9 number track in a red window to set the film start. In the 1940s, not all 120 film had 6x6 framing numbers, and the 6x9 track has the 1 a little further on than would be the case for 6x6. Since I converted mine to 12 frames, I set the start at the first of the warning marks for 6x9 frame 1 and it works very well.

I can get 13 frames on the film with my Kodak Reflex II if I reset the (friction wheel) counter mid-roll. That's a stunt though -- where would I store the thirteenth frame?
 

ant!

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Just looked it up:
The Pentax 645 uses 15 frames, the 645n 16, and the 645nII gives the choice.
 

Donald Qualls

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ant! said:
Besides the earlier start point, what is needed for this?
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I had to disassemble the frame counter and film advance drive and cut a twelfth stop notch in the stop cam wheel. The tricky part is getting the spacing right -- mine gives a little extra space before frame 12, but not enough to run off the end of the film if I start it correctly.
 

darkroommike

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Measure your negatives, the 16 shots on 120 are closer in size to 6x4cm and the 15 shot 120 cameras shoot a slightly different ratio 6x4.5cm, the 15 shot cameras require some sort or mechanical spacing mechanism the 16 shot cameras use either a mechanical advance (Hasselblad) or a red window.
 
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