135mm f6.8 C.P. Goerz Dagor

John Wiegerink · Apr 28, 2023

Just picked up both front and rear lens groups of uncoated 135mm f6.8 Dagor for a very cheap price. I'm going to dig through my box of Compur shutters and mount the groups in it. I'm thinking of putting this on one of my spare 9X12cm Patent Etui cameras. The one I use now has a 135mm Tessar, which works fine, but I'd like to try the Dagor out for maybe a little more character. Does anyone have experience using the 135mm f6.8 Dagor on 9X12cm or even 4X5 for that matter? Summer is almost here in Michigan and that's when I usually get my oddball cameras out to play with.

JPD · Apr 29, 2023

I hope you can find a fitting shutter. It should be a nice lens. Dagors tend have an interesting softness at f:6,8 and f:9, mostly due to coma, if my memory is correct. But it's a charming softness. At f:12,5 and smaller it's a sharp and contrasty lens.

John Wiegerink · Apr 30, 2023

JPD said:
I hope you can find a fitting shutter. It should be a nice lens. Dagors tend have an interesting softness at f:6,8 and f:9, mostly due to coma, if my memory is correct. But it's a charming softness. At f:12,5 and smaller it's a sharp and contrasty lens.

JPD,
Sounds like this Dagor will be a perfect match for an old 9x12 camera. I have a 135mm Eurynar that has its own character also and will compare both.

lobitar · May 1, 2023

If it's a Goerz-Berlin lens then the mounting threads of the front and rear lens groups tend to have slightly different thread sizes. That's probably not the case with Goerz-American lenses, of course?

John Wiegerink · May 2, 2023

I am away right now and haven't had a chance to try to fit the cells to a shutter yet, but my cells are marked Goerz Berlin.

Ian Grant · May 2, 2023

It should be a Dial set Compur 0 shutter but be aware there are three variations in tube length, see here.

As long as the cells are in good condition you will have a lens with excellent contrast despite being uncoated. I did some tests with a 120mm Dagor, 165mm f5.3 Tessar and a 135mm Ihagee-Goerz Dialyte, all in excellent condition optically and it was clear how contrats deceresad with the additional internal air glass services.

It should just cover 5x4. I don't think Goerz AM Opt ever made a 135mm, they made a 125mm then 150mm.

Ian

lobitar · May 2, 2023

John Wiegerink said:
I am away right now and haven't had a chance to try to fit the cells to a shutter yet, but my cells are marked Goerz Berlin.

In that case I fear you have to find a shutter likewise marked Goerz-Berlin. I've tried at least half a dozen in this general focal length, they all had slightly different thread size fore and aft, no exception. By the way I have a suspicion that Goerz-Berlin only made the 130mm but marked them 125, 130 or 135. Just a suspicion ofcourse. Hope you manage to find a fitting shutter.

lobitar · May 2, 2023

@JPD and Ian Grant - I totally agree, the old Dagors are great lenses! Only I seem to remember, that they are somewhat uneven in sharp coverage in these 'amateur' focal lengths (like the Tessars)? Whence one should always try it out before buying if at all possible.

choiliefan · May 2, 2023

I recently picked up an ancient 6" Berlin Dagor mounted in a dial-set Wollensak shutter which appears original. I don't have it in front of me otherwise I'd post a pic.
In the same lot I received a 7" Berlin Dagor in a larger dial-set Goerz shutter which is totally seized. We're talking very old lenses here, similar in age to the ones also found on plate or Ango, Anshutz type cameras.

John Wiegerink · May 2, 2023

Ian Grant said:
It should be a Dial set Compur 0 shutter but be aware there are three variations in tube length, see here.

As long as the cells are in good condition you will have a lens with excellent contrast despite being uncoated. I did some tests with a 120mm Dagor, 165mm f5.3 Tessar and a 135mm Ihagee-Goerz Dialyte, all in excellent condition optically and it was clear how contrats deceresad with the additional internal air glass services.

It should just cover 5x4. I don't think Goerz AM Opt ever made a 135mm, they made a 125mm then 150mm.

Ian

I remember reading your statement on those lens comparisons sometime back, Ian. I stated above that I have a 135mm Eurynar, but it's actually a 165mm. I use that on my 4X5 and like it very much. I had a 6" Dagor years ago that was a fine lens, but sold it and went for a more modern Fujinon. Sounds like I'm going to have a rather tough time finding a shutter for the lens, but I'll figure something out. It's not like I need to get this up and running by tomorrow or anything. I just thought it would make a better lens character wise than my Tessar that's on the Patent Etui.

lobitar · May 3, 2023

As an afterthought want to add that your Dagor cells perhaps may have been ordered from Germany by the US importer, in which case probably machined to be fitted in an american shutter. In that case the front- and aft cells probably have identical threads?

John Wiegerink · May 3, 2023

lobitar said:
As an afterthought want to add that your Dagor cells perhaps may have been ordered from Germany by the US importer, in which case probably machined to be fitted in an american shutter. In that case the front- and aft cells probably have identical threads?

I'll know tomorrow when I get back to my cottage, where the lens cells/groups are. I'll keep you posted as to what I find.

John Wiegerink · May 5, 2023

Well, I found a shutter that my cells screw directly into. Both front and rear cells have the same size threads, which certainly makes things easier. I measured the distance from the front of the front cell to the rear of the rear cell, and it's right around 27.38mm. Now all I have to do is find out if this is the normal distance between cells or not.

lobitar · May 7, 2023

Seems to confirm your cells were ordered for an american shutter, I guess. And although I own a specimen of the Universal #0 (?) shutter I don't own Dagor cells for it. My present 135mm Dagor is a somewhat older item fitted in an old Compound shutter. Its front-to-end distance is abt. 25.4 mm, and the flange-to-flange distance of the shutter itself is 18.5 mm, which is standard for prewar dial-set #0 german shutters. However my guess would be, that your shutter fits the bill.

John Wiegerink · May 7, 2023

lobitar said:
Seems to confirm your cells were ordered for an american shutter, I guess. And although I own a specimen of the Universal #0 (?) shutter I don't own Dagor cells for it. My present 135mm Dagor is a somewhat older item fitted in an old Compound shutter. Its front-to-end distance is abt. 25.4 mm, and the flange-to-flange distance of the shutter itself is 18.5 mm, which is standard for prewar dial-set #0 german shutters. However my guess would be, that your shutter fits the bill.

Thanks for this information. Yes, I'm happy the threads, front and rear, are the same. I mounted the lens with Universal shutter onto a lens board for my 4X5 Toyo. I plan on taking it out tomorrow and see how it acts on 4X5 sheet film. I'm also going to dig out some older Compur shutters and I'm pretty sure it will fit them also.

lobitar · May 7, 2023

Seems reasonable. Just for the record: I seem to remember my Ilex Universal shutter has Kodak Anastigmat cells, which would make its shutter mounting (i.e. exterior) thread abt. 34 mm. In which case it technically speaking is a #1 shutter (at least in Compur parlance). The fitting Compur/Compound shutter hence would probably have 34mm mounting thread and a shutter flange-to-flange distance of 21.5 mm. As said just for the record.

choiliefan · May 10, 2023

Congratulations on finding a shutter for your Dagor.

John Wiegerink · May 11, 2023

choiliefan said:
Congratulations on finding a shutter for your Dagor.

Helps being a hoarder and never throwing anything out. Ha-ha! I loaded up a couple of 4x5 holders and have the lens mounted on my Toyo. Will check the coverage later in the day. I'm a little worried that the shutter barrel distance might not be optima.

choiliefan · May 12, 2023

I have an ancient 135mm Dagor in barrel I can measure the distance front to back, lens surface to surface this weekend which might approximate it for you.

John Wiegerink · May 12, 2023

choiliefan said:
I have an ancient 135mm Dagor in barrel I can measure the distance front to back, lens surface to surface this weekend which might approximate it for you.

I would really appreciate you doing that measurement. It would at least let me know how close I am to the correct spacing.

choiliefan · May 14, 2023

Give or take a couple thousandths of an inch the spacing between the cells on mine is 1.042".

John Wiegerink · May 14, 2023

choiliefan said:
Give or take a couple thousandths of an inch the spacing between the cells on mine is 1.042".

Thank you very much. Later in the day I'll take a measurement and see just how close mine is to yours. Thanks again!

John Wiegerink · May 15, 2023

I remeasured mine and I'm within 1mm one way or the other. I get a chance today I'll snap a shot or to and see what it looks like. I'm thinking it should be pretty good, but time will tell.

cjhale · Aug 10, 2023

Just for fun, here is another ancient 135mm Dagor. It is in an original early Compound shutter. The diameter of the cell threads is 27.5mm and the tube length is only 23.5 mm front to back. I know it is original because it still carries the bizarre old Goerz aperture scale. Someone in the past thought enough of this lens to substitute it for the Zeiss glass on an ICA 205 Ideal short bellows plate camera. I rescued it for use in a light weight field outfit, mounted on a 4x5 Tachihara. This thing is tiny and turns around inside the folded camera.

JPD · Aug 19, 2023

cjhale said:
Just for fun, here is another ancient 135mm Dagor. It is in an original early Compound shutter. The diameter of the cell threads is 27.5mm and the tube length is only 23.5 mm front to back. I know it is original because it still carries the bizarre old Goerz aperture scale.

The good thing about the old Goerz aperture scale is that at auctions some potential bidders might think that the lens has been put in a shutter made for another lens, maybe with the wrong spacing and that the aperture scale is off. So you can get it cheaper. If you are lucky, since a lot of sellers try to sell Dagors for high fantasy prices these days.

135mm f6.8 C.P. Goerz Dagor

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