12x20 Camera Recommendation

Hi:

I am looking to purchase a 12x20 camera soon and I'd like to get some advice from those who own or have a lot of knowledge about what is currently available on the market. I own 2 K.B. Canham cameras with assorted backs so I'm familiar with his construction quality. I see Wisner has a new light-weight 12x20 out. I would prefer modern cameras over older ones. Any input would be appreciated.

-Mike

I have a canham 12x20, but unless you can find one used you may wait a year for it.

I'm not a fan of Wisner.

If you have any specific questions please feel free to ask.

One thing I have purchased recently is a Wind Stabilizer Kit from Alan W. Brubaker's site http://www.filmholders.com

and the kit itself...

http://www.filmholders.com/wskit.html

This has made a substantial difference in stability. I have one for my 12x20 and my 8x10.

I would highly recommend one for any LF camera.

Is Wisner even taking orders at this point? Last I heard, he was clearing the backlog and moving the shop, and I haven't heard that he's caught up yet.

mikewhi said:

Hi:

I am looking to purchase a 12x20 camera soon and I'd like to get some advice from those who own or have a lot of knowledge about what is currently available on the market. I own 2 K.B. Canham cameras with assorted backs so I'm familiar with his construction quality. I see Wisner has a new light-weight 12x20 out. I would prefer modern cameras over older ones. Any input would be appreciated.

-Mike

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New 12X20 cameras don't come on the market often so if you want to buy one fairly quickly the best thing would be to get the word out on the various forums that you are interested in buying a used one. You need to decide how you like to photograph. If you can limit your scope to wide angle lenses, as does Dick Arentz, you would be very happy with an old F&S or Korona in good condition. On the other hand, if your vision tends more toward normal and slightly tele look, you will have to look for a new or used Canham, Lotus or Wisner with more bellows draw. I know that Shen-Hao is also designing one at this time as well so you might contact them about the time-line of availibility. Or contact Jim Chinn as his line may be available soon.

Sandy

I have a 12x20 Lotus and find it to be the finest view camera I've owned. Getting a new one won't be easy as they no longer have a US distributor and they don't show up on the used market often. Current pricing in US $ is ~$8,000. Plus shipping, duty, etc.

Although Canhams are very well made, I'm not a big fan of the design and funcionality. Just my preference - many people love them. Since you're already a happy Canham owner, why not go that way, if you can wait? Although Wisner makes a good camera, their future appears to be tenuous and his track record for customer service is dismal.

Good luck! BTW, did you try the Whoa Nelly Deli in Lee Vining??

Kerik said:

I have a 12x20 Lotus and find it to be the finest view camera I've owned. Getting a new one won't be easy as they no longer have a US distributor and they don't show up on the used market often. Current pricing in US $ is ~$8,000. Plus shipping, duty, etc.

Although Canhams are very well made, I'm not a big fan of the design and funcionality. Just my preference - many people love them. Since you're already a happy Canham owner, why not go that way, if you can wait? Although Wisner makes a good camera, their future appears to be tenuous and his track record for customer service is dismal.

Good luck! BTW, did you try the Whoa Nelly Deli in Lee Vining??

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Hi! Thanks for the info. I have some concerns about a Canham 12x20....I think the design works great on 5x7 and 8x10, but when you sale up, I am not so sure......I am looking into a Shen-Hao right now but everything is up in the air. I was thinking of a Lotus, but the price and importability are problems...

Yes, I tried the deli in Lee Vining! It was very good food - they even had a large wine selection. The prices were a little high, but I was pleased. Do you know why they have the trapeze out front?

Thanks for the info.

-Mike

Have you tried contacting Gandolfi in the UK? They stock 11x14 cameras and will make other sizes (including 12x20) to order. There web site is:
http://www.gandolficameras.com

mikewhi said:

Hi! Thanks for the info. I have some concerns about a Canham 12x20....I think the design works great on 5x7 and 8x10, but when you sale up, I am not so sure......I am looking into a Shen-Hao right now but everything is up in the air. I was thinking of a Lotus, but the price and importability are problems...

Yes, I tried the deli in Lee Vining! It was very good food - they even had a large wine selection. The prices were a little high, but I was pleased. Do you know why they have the trapeze out front?

Thanks for the info.

-Mike

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You might contact the folks at Lotus. They are nice folks. You never know they may have a demo model laying around or something...

Ah, the trapeze. The story is hazy, but I think the owner had it built for one or more of his kids who wanted to learn how to fly with the greatest of ease.

You may consider the Wisner 12x20 currently on ebay... I have a Wisner 7x17 and I really like it. I am not familiar with their 12x20, though.

http://cgi.ebay.com/Wisner-Standard...ryZ15248QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

Ah!....The Whoa Nelly Deli in Lee Vining! lobster taquitos and mango margueritas---yum! Try the seared Ahi if you get the chance.

The owner took a trapeze class at a Club Med and really got into it so he bought his own trapeze (or at least thats the story I was told!)

The little terrace probably has the greenest grass in Lee Vining besides the county park on the North side of Mono Lake (which is loaded with stinging nettle!)

Cheers!

As I understand it, Canham has moved into their new building and will be working on getting their custom camera backlog worked on. I did not get a date on that. At the moment, I am fifth on the list and there are several after me. You should contact Keith Canham for the amount of wait for a 12x20.

colrehogan said:

You should contact Keith Canham for the amount of wait for a 12x20.

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His website currently says 18-20 months.

Kerik said:

I have a 12x20 Lotus and find it to be the finest view camera I've owned. Getting a new one won't be easy as they no longer have a US distributor and they don't show up on the used market often. Current pricing in US $ is ~$8,000. Plus shipping, duty, etc.

Although Canhams are very well made, I'm not a big fan of the design and funcionality. Just my preference - many people love them. Since you're already a happy Canham owner, why not go that way, if you can wait? Although Wisner makes a good camera, their future appears to be tenuous and his track record for customer service is dismal.

Good luck! BTW, did you try the Whoa Nelly Deli in Lee Vining??

Click to expand...

I own a 12X20 Canham (also a 7X17) and like most cameras they have strong and weak points. The strong points are very long bellows draw, more than 48" as I recall, light weight and lots of movements. I don't like the design of the rear because there is quite a lot of flex in the back even when you have it locked down. It would have been much better IMO to have eliminated the rear shift feature, which virtually no one uses, and this would have allowed making the back more rigid. That said, the fact that the back flexes is more of a psychological issue than a real problem because it always returns to the same point, and between the time you pull the dark slide and release the shutter the back is still.

Sandy

sanking said:

That said, the fact that the back flexes is more of a psychological issue than a real problem because it always returns to the same point, and between the time you pull the dark slide and release the shutter the back is still.
Sandy

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Hi Sandy:

My main concern is the rigidity of the back. I know my 7x17 flexes a lot. How does the 12x20 back do in the wind? Do you have a stabilizer kit for it - do you feel the need for one?

Thanks.

-Mike

Mine acts like a sail when the wind is blowing, but otherwise, I have had no trouble with it at all. I've not had one image ruined due to rigidity issues.

But, as I've said earlier, I do like what the wind kit has done for the camera.

Also, if money isn't too much of an issue, Keith may be, uh, bribed? He doesn't make much money on the really large cameras due to the time it takes to make them. Offer him more money and you could probably get it much sooner. It's just negotiation.

I was lucky enough to get it done in about 4 months.

Kerik said:

I have a 12x20 Lotus and find it to be the finest view camera I've owned. Getting a new one won't be easy as they no longer have a US distributor and they don't show up on the used market often. Current pricing in US $ is ~$8,000. Plus shipping, duty, etc.

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Unfortunately for Lotus, they are a victim of fluctuating exchange rates. Back when the euro was worth about $0.85 their cameras actually cost US buyers less than a comparable Canham model. With the currently weak US dollar (1 euro ~$1.20) their cameras are now significantly more expensive for US buyers.

If price isn't an issue, I wouldn't let the lack of a US distributor stop me from buying from Lotus. I own a 4x10 Lotus back for my "home made" ARCA-SWISS/Lotus hybrid along with several 4x10 Lotus film holders. The quality is top notch. In fact, the Lotus 4x10 holders are the finest wooden holders I've used (and they are guaranteed for life against light leaks). The people at Lotus are friendly, a pleasure to deal with, fluent in English and respond promptly to email.

Global EMS from Austria to the States for smaller cameras is quite reasonable, but might be significant for something as heavy as a 12x20 camera. Customs duty is kind or hit and miss. Sometimes you get charged, sometimes you don't, and the percentage never seems to be the same (generally around 2% give or take). I personally avoid Fed-Ex and especially UPS for international shipping. In addition to import duty, they also charge a "brokerage fee" for clearing the package through customs.

There was a gentleman selling Lotus cameras at the View Camera Large Format Conference in Springfield back in May of this year. He had a few cameras that he was selling as "demos" at VERY significant discounts. He only had a handful of cameras, but I beleive he sold everything he brought to the show. I believe he was considering becoming a US dealer/distributor for Lotus. If I can remember his name, I'll dig up his email adress and post it here.

I haven't seen any of the Shen-Hao ULF cameras in person. I was interested in their 7x17 model that was originally priced at $2700 and seemed like a good deal. Then, before selling a single camera, the price jumped by $1000 to $3700 and I lost interest. Given their choice of materials, the Shen-Hao cameras are significantly heavier than the Canham, Lotus or Wisner products. This may not be a big deal to some people, but it matters to me. A 12x20 She-Hao would be a beast. Their 5x12 model with less than 23" of bellows draw weighs more than Canham's 7x17 that has 36" of bellows. I'm also not a big fan of Shen-Hao's business practice of the blatant and unauthorised copying of other companies designs (but that's just my personal opinion).

Jack Deardorff is once again making and selling cameras. I saw his new 5x7 at the Midwest Photo Exchange booth at the Large Format Conference and it looked great - exactly like you'd expect. Supposedly, he will start delivering new 12x20 Deardorffs early next year. I don't have my price list handy, but can look up the price of the 12x20 and post it whan I have a chance - although it would be best to call Jack and check on price and availability. His number is: 219-464-9748.

Kerry

I called Mr. Deardorff and spoke with him about the 12x20. It is built on the 11x14 chasis and comes with 50" or bellows draw although that would leave no room for movements, so 40" or so is the likely useful limit. I'm not sure of all the movements - he is sending me a brochure. It is quite expensive, but as we all know it should hold it's value over time, certainly more than a Shen-Hao.

I'm not certain that I'll go with a Deardorff yet. Does anyone own one of the modern 8x10's or 11x14's? Can you recommend it or tell me about using it, build quality, movements, adaptability, etc.

Thanks.

-Mike

I'll chime in with some Canham 12x20 experience. I own one, and what I really like about it is that I can put it on a beefy carbon fiber gitzo tripod, and still have a camera light enough to be put over your shoulder and moved around a shoot. I know everyone else has an unerring sense of where to locate the tripod legs, but personally, I often do a little field adjustment, anywhere from a few inches to a couple of hundred feet. Having to take the whole camera down to transport it a hundred yards is a pain in the rear.

But the lightness does come at a cost. It is a little more flexible than a deardorff would be, albeit at probably half the weight. I find that having the brubaker wind kit adequately solves that problem.

Another thing that has been mentioned are the 'haptics' of the Canham cameras. They require a learning curve to get efficient at using the focus locks and so forth. I find that if I haven't been out in a month, it takes at least one exposure before I get back in my groove for using the camera. Whether this is a deal-stopper for you is your call. Try to find an 8x10 canham to use for a day, and see if it drives you nuts.

One thing no one has mentioned is the modularity of the canham line of cameras. Because all the metal parts are NC machined, Keith can very easily (easy for me, at least!) make conversion backs for his various cameras. In my case, I had Keith make a 10x12 conversion back for my 7x17. That way I can cut down the amount of gear I drag along in the field and still have two formats. He is currently making a 14x17 conversion back for my 12x20, which, by the way, DOES dispense with one of the rear movments and locks and should be significantly more rigid and lightweight.

There is no perfect camera. But the one that comes closest is the one you actually want to use when you go out. Choose wisely, grasshopper.

mikewhi said:

I called Mr. Deardorff and spoke with him about the 12x20. It is built on the 11x14 chasis and comes with 50" or bellows draw although that would leave no room for movements, so 40" or so is the likely useful limit. I'm not sure of all the movements - he is sending me a brochure. It is quite expensive, but as we all know it should hold it's value over time, certainly more than a Shen-Hao.

I'm not certain that I'll go with a Deardorff yet. Does anyone own one of the modern 8x10's or 11x14's? Can you recommend it or tell me about using it, build quality, movements, adaptability, etc.

Thanks.

-Mike

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mikewhi said:

Hi Sandy:

My main concern is the rigidity of the back. I know my 7x17 flexes a lot. How does the 12x20 back do in the wind? Do you have a stabilizer kit for it - do you feel the need for one?

Thanks.

-Mike

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I do have a stablilizer for my 12X20 Canham, a home-made configuration devised by a friend that is similar in concept to the AWB device. However, I use it rarely. The only time I feel that it is really useful is when there is a lot of wind. However, in those conditions you must be very careful when tripping the shutter, even with a stabilizer.

Sandy

Robert Hall said:

Also, if money isn't too much of an issue, Keith may be, uh, bribed? He doesn't make much money on the really large cameras due to the time it takes to make them. Offer him more money and you could probably get it much sooner. It's just negotiation.

I was lucky enough to get it done in about 4 months.

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Well, I wish I could say that was the case, but at the moment, it's not. So, I won't worry about it for a while.