127 film too wide for a Paterson Reel?

[Brownie_Holiday]

Is this normal? I'm new to developing, and this is my first roll of 127. It took me over a half hour to get the film on the reel because of this. I could feel it buckling and it kept popping out. I figured it was just me being new, and that may still be the case. After the fact I started to use the film for practice and discovered this. So again, is this normal?

127 Top by telecast, on Flickr

127 side by telecast, on Flickr

You can see how much wider it is here. As soon as I can find a ruler that measures mm, I'll check the filmand reel.
127 lap by telecast, on Flickr

 

[Kino]

Well, the obvious question is; Did you have the reel set for 127? It should be the setting inbetween 35mm and 120; the middle setting.

"When adjusting the reel to accommodate different sizes of film hold one end of the reel in your left hand and the other end in your right hand. Then turn each end of the reel in opposite directions until the two part of the reel unlock. The two halves of the reel can now be slid apart until the correct width for the film to be processed is reached. Now turn each half of the reel in opposite directions to re-lock the two halves in the new position. With new reels the two halves my require extra pressure to unlock them, but this eases with use."

https://www.patersonphotographic.com/product/paterson-auto-load-reel/

 

[MattKing]

Please don't take offense at this question.
Have you set the reel to the 127 width?

 

[Brownie_Holiday]

Well, the obvious question is; Did you have the reel set for 127? It should be the setting inbetween 35mm and 120; the middle setting.

"When adjusting the reel to accommodate different sizes of film hold one end of the reel in your left hand and the other end in your right hand. Then turn each end of the reel in opposite directions until the two part of the reel unlock. The two halves of the reel can now be slid apart until the correct width for the film to be processed is reached. Now turn each half of the reel in opposite directions to re-lock the two halves in the new position. With new reels the two halves my require extra pressure to unlock them, but this eases with use."

https://www.patersonphotographic.com/product/paterson-auto-load-reel/

Please don't take offense at this question.
Have you set the reel to the 127 width?

Yes gentlemen. If it were set for 35mm the film would've overhung the reel by 10mm.

Lay it on top of some 35mm film and see if it's the same. Patterson reels are intended for 35mm.

Paterson reels are adjustable for 35, 127, and 120. This was adjusted to 127.

 

[MattKing]

What film is it?

 

[Kino]

Yes gentlemen. If it were set for 35mm the film would've overhung the reel by 10mm.

You DID say you were new to film development, so obvious questions have to be asked.
No need to act offended.

Paterson reels are adjustable for 35, 127, and 120. This was adjusted to 127.

Is the film very old?
Did you slightly trim the leading corners of the film to avoid it snagging on the support ribs of the reel?

 

[Brownie_Holiday]

Apologies. I didn't mean to sound offended, but I did think the photos were conclusive as to the width.

Here are the details:

Rerapan 100. New, just got it from BH a few weeks ago, been stored in the fridge. I did trim the corners.

Every time I'd think it was started it would pop out.

127 Film is 46mm wide.
The Paterson tank reel (adjusted) is 46mm wide
This Rerapan is just shy of 47mm wide.

Doesn't seem like much, but it was enough so that there's no way it would lay flat and follow the grooves. In retrospect it's probably a wonder I even got it loaded at all.

 

[Hunter_Compton]

I just took a pair of calipers to a Kodak 127 film spool and a Paterson reel set to 127. The inner flange width of the 127 spool is 47.1mm and the Paterson reel is 46.5mm. So, it is possible for the film to sit properly on the spool and not on the reel.

Still, 0.6mm of additional width doesn't seem like it would cause the feeding troubles you're having.

Out of curiosity, who supplied the film? I can't say I have had this problem before and I've shot most of the 127 stocks currently available.

 

[Kino]

Sounds like the Rerapan is slightly out of specification and is slightly wider than normal.

That's a pain!

Perhaps you can disengage the reels, slightly widen them to accomodate Rerapan and tape the center core with some waterproof tape if you have more rolls to process. The tape would have to be strong and waterproof, as the locks would not be engaged.

 

[Brownie_Holiday]

I just took a pair of calipers to a Kodak 127 film spool and a Paterson reel set to 127. The inner flange width of the 127 spool is 47.1mm and the Paterson reel is 46.5mm. So, it is possible for the film to sit properly on the spool and not on the reel.

Still, 0.6mm of additional width doesn't seem like it would cause the feeding troubles you're having.

Out of curiosity, who supplied the film? I can't say I have had this problem before and I've shot most of the 127 stocks currently available.

My dial calipers indicated exactly 46mm wide, but that was after transferring it to a ruler. The film was just ( and I mean just) shy of 47.

This came from B&H, and it wasn't throwaway film at $13/roll plus shipping. I still have another roll and now I need to find a new source. I suspect that it is isolated, but still worried me buying more.

I know it doesn't seem like a lot but the pics don't lie. That film is wider than the reel and it's enough to cause it to buckle and bow.

 

[Brownie_Holiday]

Sounds like the Rerapan is slightly out of specification and is slightly wider than normal.

That's a pain!

Perhaps you can disengage the reels, slightly widen them to accomodate Rerapan and tape the center core with some waterproof tape if you have more rolls to process. The tape would have to be strong and waterproof, as the locks would not be engaged.

I'd LOVE to find a SS 127 reel. The wire design would give me more play.

 

[MattKing]

Can you measure the 127 spool that the film came on?
Remember, it is the one still in the camera .

 

[Kino]

It should be 46mm. You might explore getting a refund for out of spec film.

 

[Brownie_Holiday]

It should be 46mm. You might explore getting a refund for out of spec film.

That's what I plan to do. Still not sure what to do about finding another source, 127 is hard to come by.

 

[Hunter_Compton]

It sucks that you learned this after exposure and development. However, it would be possible to fix this issue going forward. If you take a file or xacto knife you can trim the flange surface on the inside of the Paterson reel to widen the gap for the film. Just take off 0.5-1.0mm from the highlighted surface below:

 

[Kino]

That's what I plan to do. Still not sure what to do about finding another source, 127 is hard to come by.

Buy yourself a 120 slitter and a 16mm sub mini film camera! Cut it down and shoot a roll of 127 and a roll of 16mm from each 120 roll. Better selection of emulsions and another camera!

https://www.camerhack.it/product/fck127-mk-3/

Yes, it will incur some expense to get going, but if you have a 127 camera and plan to shoot extensively with it, it's about the only way to run...

 

[Kino]

It sucks that you learned this after exposure and development. However, it would be possible to fix this issue going forward. If you take a file or xacto knife you can trim the flange surface on the inside of the Paterson reel to widen the gap for the film. Just take off 0.5-1.0mm from the highlighted surface below:

View attachment 264475

Good idea.

 

[Auer]

Buy yourself a 120 slitter and a 16mm sub mini film camera! Cut it down and shoot a roll of 127 and a roll of 16mm from each 120 roll. Better selection of emulsions and another camera!

https://www.camerhack.it/product/fck127-mk-3/

Yes, it will incur some expense to get going, but if you have a 127 camera and plan to shoot extensively with it, it's about the only way to run...

Pretty neat, looks like it would pay itself back pretty quick.

 

[Kino]

Pretty neat, looks like it would pay itself back pretty quick.

I have just finished refurbishing a Yashica 44 and a LM44, so I will be investing in this real soon.

I also have a Minolta 16mm submini, so... makes sense.

 

[Brownie_Holiday]

Lots of good suggestions. I would like to shoot 127 more. This roll was made on a Baby Brownie Special and I also have a Kodak Vest Pocket Autographic that needs a cleaning. Having said that, it was really never in my plans to shoot 127 a lot, more 135 and 120.

I may try trimming the spool but I doubt I'd ever get into slicing and respooling. I don't have a good dark space and my hands were in that stinkin' bag long enough!

 

[Brownie_Holiday]

As if all of this isn't bad enough, I just found a Brownie 127 with case that appears to be in dead mint condition for free. Some guy posted it on CL just to get rid of it. I'm picking it up tomorrow. I'm doomed...doomed I tell ya'!

 

[Auer]

Lots of good suggestions. I would like to shoot 127 more. This roll was made on a Baby Brownie Special and I also have a Kodak Vest Pocket Autographic that needs a cleaning. Having said that, it was really never in my plans to shoot 127 a lot, more 135 and 120.

I may try trimming the spool but I doubt I'd ever get into slicing and respooling. I don't have a good dark space and my hands were in that stinkin' bag long enough!

The film trimmer mentioned above seems to not need a darkroom or bag.

"FCK127 is a complete kit that cuts 120 film to the sizo of 127, and rolls it onto a 127 film spool. FCK127 is light-sealed, so you can (with some precautions) go through the entire process in light.
As a result of cutting 120 to 127 format, you will also get a leftover film that is 16mm unperforated film."

 

[Brownie_Holiday]

The film trimmer mentioned above seems to not need a darkroom or bag.

"FCK127 is a complete kit that cuts 120 film to the sizo of 127, and rolls it onto a 127 film spool. FCK127 is light-sealed, so you can (with some precautions) go through the entire process in light.
As a result of cutting 120 to 127 format, you will also get a leftover film that is 16mm unperforated film."

Sounds easy, here's a video showing the complete process. There's still quite a bit that needs to be done in the dark.

FCK127 Mk.III kit - how to cut 120 film to 127 film format and roll it on a 127 spool - by CAMERHACK - Bing video

 

[Kino]

Obsolete, largely unsupported formats naturally take more effort to shoot.

Maybe you should grab a 120 Brownie; it's a lot easier to use!

 

[Donald Qualls]

What you're seeing here is Rera being lazy.

Originally, 127 film was cut to 46mm, but the backing was 47 mm to make it a tight fit in the spool and prevent fogging after the exposed roll was sealed, before processing. Tolerances being what they are, most 127 film reels will fit 46mm film with a little slop.

Rerapan, apparently, is cut with the film the same width as the backing -- simpler processing, possibly, and a strong indicator they're cutting their own from larger rolls rather than buying 46mm wide rolls from a film manufacturer and loading that -- but that puts the film outside the tolerance of the reel. if you want to continue using Rerapan (and Rerachrome), you'll probably want to do the modification to the Paterson reel mentioned above, to let the plates sit a millimeter further apart (it won't prevent processing in-spec film, just make it possible to process the too-wide Rera stock). Otherwise, I'd recommend switching over to recutting 120 as soon as you have half a dozen 127 spools (and you can buy those without film on them, though I don't recall exactly where).

There are commercial 3D printed devices available to cut 127 width from 120 (I have one in front of me right now). If you cut so the 46mm strip is on the edge with the 6x4.5 framing track, and then spool the film backward, you'll get the 6x4.5 track where a 4x4 camera expects it, and the 6x6 track where a 4x6.5 full frame 127 needs it. You'll probably need to mask the frame a little in a full frame camera (or live with a few millimeters of overlap) and you surely will have to if you have a half-frame 4x3 size camera, but this means you don't have to recycle 127 backing paper until it's too tattered to use, you can just use the backing that gets cut along with the film from 120.

In the past, however, I've cut 120 to 127 by hand -- I've read about it being done on a bandsaw, and seen video of it done with a guillotine style cigar cutter; I've done it with a utility knife, while spinning the film on my 7x12 mini-lathe. In daylight. In my experience, the fogging at the cut is much narrower than the rebate on the film, even if you accidentally cut all the way through the spool core.

As a bonus, you get a leftover strip that will make two minimum reloads for a Minolta 16 or similar 16mm camera that doesn't depend on perforations in the film.