120 Problem--airbells??

Robert Kerwin · Jul 29, 2006

On some FP4+ (120) that I processed recently, I noticed some problems. On the negatives there are small, more or less round spots of lower density (but not clear). Most of them are around a millimeter or less in diameter and can occur almost anywhere in the frame, but of course are most noticeable in the sky areas. See the attached scan for an idea of what I'm talking about. I've also noticed that they seem to occur only in the last 1/3 of the roll.

I always rap the tank against the counter after each agitation and have never had any problems with 35mm. I'm using a Paterson tank and plastic reels. My developer is XTOL 1:2 (if that makes any difference) and I do not presoak my film.

From what I've read, it seems 120 has a more problems than 35mm with airbells and that a presoak can help. Any thoughts?

Thanks,
Robert

Edwardv · Jul 29, 2006

Looks like air bubbles and I still can be wrong. Expose a test roll of film; and pre-wet the film before developing for two minutes. You will need to extend you development time by 15-25 percent. Good luck.

Ryuji · Jul 29, 2006

It looks like air bubbles, and the procedure you described is also not inconsistent with this.

I used to see this type of air bubbles most frequently with Fujifilm Acros in 120 size, but I've been getting calls from users of HP5 Plus and FP4 Plus in 120 sizes who get this problem in last few months.

Dead Link Removed

Kobin · Jul 29, 2006

Robert, be sure you don't agitate the presoak (sounds silly, but I do silly things now and then). Just bag the tank.

K.

jim appleyard · Jul 29, 2006

Looks like airbells, but they seemed to have been knocked off the film part-way into the developing cycle so some development did take place.

I always agitate some during a pre-soak and I've never had a problem. Why wouldn't/shouldn't you agitate?

Ed Sukach · Jul 30, 2006

Do you use shortstop?

Kobin · Jul 30, 2006

jim appleyard said:
Why wouldn't/shouldn't you agitate?

I blame agitated presoak for ruining a roll of hp5+. Airbells. Never had them before or after; only agitated that one time. Banged the tank, too. Don't know why I started inverting the presoak on that occassion, but I'll never do it again. Had some good images on that roll.

K.

john_s · Jul 30, 2006

Robert Kerwin said:
On some FP4+ (120) that I processed recently, I noticed some problems. On the negatives there are small, more or less round spots of lower density (but not clear). Most of them are around a millimeter or less in diameter and can occur almost anywhere in the frame, but of course are most noticeable in the sky areas. See the attached scan for an idea of what I'm talking about. I've also noticed that they seem to occur only in the last 1/3 of the roll.

I always rap the tank against the counter after each agitation and have never had any problems with 35mm. I'm using a Paterson tank and plastic reels. My developer is XTOL 1:2 (if that makes any difference) and I do not presoak my film.

From what I've read, it seems 120 has a more problems than 35mm with airbells and that a presoak can help. Any thoughts?

Thanks,
Robert

These defects are absolutely identical with some that I started to get recently with 120 neopan. I've been developing film for 40 years and had not got air bells for 39 years or so (mostly 35mm and some 4x5).

So I started to give a prerinse of several minutes (with agitation and vigorous rapping) and the problem went away completely. But I'm still puzzled by it. I had always rapped vigorously and agitated for 2 minutes at the start of developing. So now I always prerinse 120 (no need for 35mm) and don't have the problem.

jim appleyard · Jul 30, 2006

Kobin said:
I blame agitated presoak for ruining a roll of hp5+. Airbells. Never had them before or after; only agitated that one time. Banged the tank, too. Don't know why I started inverting the presoak on that occassion, but I'll never do it again. Had some good images on that roll.

K.

Odd that this should happen to you. I always rap the tank on the table top and agitate during a presoak. I would think that agitation would help remove any airbells leftover from rapping; improbable as that may seem.

My pre-soak is perhaps a bit different. I dissolve 1/2 tsp of sod. carb. in 1 liter of water. Then a thorough rinse before dev. I don't think I've ever had an airbell.

However, I'm an advocate of "if it ain't broke, don't fix it", and "whatever works for you". If not doing a pre-soak helps your procedure, then stay with it.

Rolleiflexible · Jul 30, 2006

I process 4x5 and 5x7 sheets in Jobo tanks on roller bases. I always presoak in tap water with the tanks turning on the bases, for maybe 5-10 minutes before processing. Never had a problem that I am aware of.

Sanders.

Kobin · Jul 30, 2006

jim appleyard said:
. If not doing a pre-soak helps your procedure, then stay with it.

Didn't say I don't presoak. I do. I'm just not an agitator.

K.

Ryuji · Jul 30, 2006

john_s said:
So I started to give a prerinse of several minutes (with agitation and vigorous rapping) and the problem went away completely. But I'm still puzzled by it. I had always rapped vigorously and agitated for 2 minutes at the start of developing. So now I always prerinse 120 (no need for 35mm) and don't have the problem.

John, read the "presoak" entry on my website, which describes why that happens.

Dead Link Removed

Ryuji · Jul 30, 2006

Kobin said:
I blame agitated presoak for ruining a roll of hp5+. Airbells. Never had them before or after; only agitated that one time. Banged the tank, too. Don't know why I started inverting the presoak on that occassion, but I'll never do it again. Had some good images on that roll.

I tried all sorts of things in a glass jar as a "developing tank" so that I can see what's happening inside.

The best is to agitate vigorously during presoak, but it is best to do two presoaks. The first presoak removes much of the anoionic surfactants used in film coating. They can form very stable foam that don't collapse by tapping the tank. I bang my tank very hard (my tanks are reinforced at the bottom!) but they don't collapse satisfactorily. Two presoaks with good agitation can wet the film evenly and remove much of the foamy surfactants, so that the developer solution can stay largely foam-free. It's a lot easier to agitate foam-free developer solution in tanks, and the risk of airbell defect is greatly reduced.

My latest experimental film developers have a compound that improves image quality AND reduces foaming. (So far this has been very effective. Detail to follow in a few months.)

Robert Kerwin · Jul 31, 2006

Many thanks for all the input. I'll run a test roll with a presoak and see if that solves my problems.

- Robert

stevoi · Jul 31, 2006

Robert,

I have exactly the same problem.
http://www.fotocommunity.de/pc/pc/extra/egallery/pcat/168171/display/5399371

I test all these things (presoak, hard rapping 5 times after each agitation, agitate all 30sek/60sek ...), nothing help. It seems impossible to free all air bubbles locate between the film. The only solution I have found is prevent the production of these Bubbles by reduce agitation. With only one agitation every minute I get mostly bubble free results. But this is no real solution because I get another bad effects like high density edges. After many weeks of research i capitulate now and look about these Hewes stainless steel reels. I think the space between the turns are too tight and with 120 Film this is not necessary. Too bad there is no other plastic Reel type for Paterson available with wider turns.

I hope you can understand my english.

Stefan

120 Problem--airbells??

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