120 film, 6x45 markings

gordonrgw · Feb 19, 2024

Hi,
Just an idle query.

I have 2 Zeiss Ikon 645 folders, the older one (a 515) has the double windows for frame spacing, the newer one (a 531) has a single window.
Does anyone know when the dedicated numbering for 645 format on the backing paper was introduced, I've done some googling but haven't come across an answer.

Oh, and yes, I have fallen down the vintage folder GAS hole..

bw gordon

Disconnekt · Feb 19, 2024

Id say very early 1930's. The Zeiss Ikonta 520 (aka Ikonta A) was released in 1932, & was the first folding camera to shoot 645 format (according to this site: http://camera-wiki.org/wiki/Japanese_4.5×6_folders).

Kodak also released their Duo Six-20 in 1933, which also shot 645 (even though it was on 620 film).

JPD · Feb 19, 2024

Disconnekt said:
Id say very early 1930's. The Zeiss Ikonta 520 (aka Ikonta A) was released in 1932, & was the first folding camera to shoot 645 format (according to this site: http://camera-wiki.org/wiki/Japanese_4.5×6_folders).

No, it was later than that. The early Ikonta A, like the one the OP has, used dual red windows for the 6x9 numbers (first (1) in the first window, and then (1) in the second window for the next shot, then (2) in the first window, and so on). The early Kodak Duo 620 also used dual windows.

I would say the 645 numbers became common in the late 1930s. 1937-39 or thereabouts. Some Ikontas and the Duo Six-20 from those years have the red window for 645.

gordonrgw · Feb 19, 2024

JPD said:
No, it was later than that. The early Ikonta A, like the one the OP has, used dual red windows for the 6x9 numbers (first (1) in the first window, and then (1) in the second window for the next shot, then (2) in the first window, and so on). The early Kodak Duo 620 also used dual windows.

I would say the 645 numbers became common in the late 1930s. 1937-39 or thereabouts. Some Ikontas and the Duo Six-20 from those years have the red window for 645.

Yes, I was thinking after 1938 - the serial number of my 515 is 38, the 531 is a post war one with shutter and lens from the pre-war period.
Just wondered if there was a specific date after which the numbering standard changed..

Bw gordon

JPD · Feb 19, 2024

gordonrgw said:
Yes, I was thinking after 1938 - the serial number of my 515 is 38, the 531 is a post war one with shutter and lens from the pre-war period.
Just wondered if there was a specific date after which the numbering standard changed..

I think another question is which manufacturer started printing the 645 numbers. Not even the name of the film size was standard back then. It probably says "Zeiss Ikon Film" "BII" or "B2" and "6x9" inside the back of your Ikonta. Ilford called it "No. 20".

I think they started to print the numbers for 6x6 about the same time.

Dustin McAmera · Feb 19, 2024

Certainly some film had 6x6 markings by 1938. I have a Super Sport Dolly and the instructions for it. It has numbers around the advance knob, and the instructions say 'The dial on the upper winding key is provided for obtaining 12 - 2¼x2¼ pictures even in those films which are not numbered 1-12.'

Square format had been around (in some of the Brownies?) for a while, but I think that was done with six-exposure 117 film. The very first Rolleiflexes (1928?) also used that, but the Rolleiflex for 120 film was around since 1930 or 32. I can't imagine film makers in Germany at least waited six years to accommodate it.

Sharktooth · Feb 19, 2024

I don't have an answer to your question about the 645 numbers, but it's interesting to note that there were never any numbers on the backing paper for 6x7. That's a very common format in the modern era, but I guess it came out when cameras had mechanics for controlling film spacing, and no longer needed the red window.

Sirius Glass · Feb 19, 2024

Dustin McAmera said:
Certainly some film had 6x6 markings by 1938. I have a Super Sport Dolly and the instructions for it. It has numbers around the advance knob, and the instructions say 'The dial on the upper winding key is provided for obtaining 12 - 2¼x2¼ pictures even in those films which are not numbered 1-12.'

Square format had been around (in some of the Brownies?) for a while, but I think that was done with six-exposure 117 film. The very first Rolleiflexes (1928?) also used that, but the Rolleiflex for 120 film was around since 1930 or 32. I can't imagine film makers in Germany at least waited six years to accommodate it.

My Certo SuperDolly was circa 1933-35 and it handled 645 and 6x6, but the 645 windows did not line up with today's films, the markings did not show up in its windows.

Dustin McAmera · Feb 19, 2024

I have one with a Meyer lens no 753567 (after 1934); this is the one with the twelve frame counter. I also have a camera with a Tessar, no. 2221413 ('37-8)
and a dead one that had a Xenar, no. 1340214 ('38), both without the counter. I've used both of my working cameras for 6x4.5 without trouble.

Marco Gilardetti · Feb 20, 2024

Sharktooth said:
I don't have an answer to your question about the 645 numbers, but it's interesting to note that there were never any numbers on the backing paper for 6x7. That's a very common format in the modern era, but I guess it came out when cameras had mechanics for controlling film spacing, and no longer needed the red window.

On the other hand, does things as 6x7 cameras with framing number windows ever existed? I can't think of any...

Dustin McAmera · Feb 20, 2024

No; you wouldn't have the red window without the numbers to appear in it. The National Graflex has a red window that you only use to get the film to frame 1.

reddesert · Feb 20, 2024

There are a few candidates for the first camera/holder to use the 6x7 format - possibly a Linhof or Graflex roll film back, or the Simmon Omega 120 (precursor to the Koni-Omega) introduced 1954. Literature/marketing around these seems to emphasize the "ideal" format ratio of 4:5 or so that matched enlarging paper / print sizes. Anyway, they use automatic frame counting. While red window cameras persisted after this, they were basic bargain models (my first camera was a hand-me-down Kodak Duaflex with a red window, probably made a decade or two before I was born).

Dustin McAmera · Feb 20, 2024

The National Graflex is from 1933.

National Graflex - Camera-wiki.org - The free camera encyclopedia

camera-wiki.org

Donald Qualls · Feb 20, 2024

FWIW, Graflex made roll film holders almost from the first year offering the Graflok mount, but don't seem to have produced a 6x7 back until they'd switched to lever advance, which was after the mid-1960s. That is to say, there were 22 and 23 backs in knob advance, but RH-12, RH-8, RH-10, and RH-20 (for 220). This seems to imply that lever advance (on Graflex roll holders, at least), 6x7, and 220 film all came along more or less together.

darkroommike · Feb 22, 2024

Check those numbers on the paper backing, if they number 1-15 then it is for 645 (unlikely) more likely is 1-16 for 6x4. The 6x4 format is ancient. Almost all 645 cameras (and 6x7) use a metered film advance not a red window system. I'll leave it to historians to figure out which was the first camera to use a 6x4 mask and red window. (Hint, it may not even be a 120 film!)

Romanko · Feb 22, 2024

gordonrgw said:
Does anyone know when the dedicated numbering for 645 format on the backing paper was introduced

A roll of Kodak Autographic film that I have has only 6x9 numbers. Kodak Verichrome in 120 and 620 format has all three (6x9, 6x6 and 6x4.5) and so does Ilford Selochrome. Autographic was discontinued in 1932 and Verichrome was introduced in 1931. I am not sure if Verichrome had 645 numbers from the very beginning or they were introduced later.

Donald Qualls · Feb 23, 2024

Romanko said:
I am not sure if Verichrome had 645 numbers from the very beginning or they were introduced later.

Verichrome ran until 1955 (give or take a year), by which time all 120 had all three framing tracks (along with 620 which used the same backing except the 120 vs. 620 on the header).

Romanko · Feb 23, 2024

Donald Qualls said:
Verichrome ran until 1955

I don't know when the rolls that I have were produced. Anyone has a sample of Verichrome backing paper from the 1930s?
The current standard for roll film is ISO 732. Does anyone know when the first edition was published? Maybe we can trace back the standards and specifications to find a definitive answer to the OP's question?

120 film, 6x45 markings

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