120 edge banding in near-Pyrocat HD

Wayne · Mar 10, 2016

I bring your attention to Exhibits A and B

Exhibit A shows banding/stain on a recently developed roll of 120 Pan F +. Developed in an HQ-only variant of Pyrocat HD with carbonate Part B, 1:5:100. Agitation 15s initially, then 5s every 30s for 10 m at 68F. It shows less banding than Exhibit B.

Exhibit B is HP5+ developed just a week or two ago from the same stock, same dilution, same agitation except 30 seconds initial instead of 15 and developed for 12 minutes. The band is not nearly as dark in reality as it is in the picture, but it is noticeably darker than the Pan F.

All I have is a crappy old non-inversion tank someone gave me. I used to use a twirling motion but I now agitate by a back and forth motion. I've been thinking this is some sort of agitation related effect at the bottom of the tank but it just occurred to me it could be increased oxidation/aerial stain at the top. Whatever it is, its less dense where the film edge is tucked into the reel.

MattKing · Mar 10, 2016

If you were local, I would give you a new reel and tank.

Can you put more developer in the tank?

Wayne · Mar 10, 2016

I was local 22 years ago but needed to dry out. I'm using 15 OZ, which is what the tank calls for. I can fit more in but I know I've read about people having problems from too much solution in reel tanks too, though I don't recall the circumstances

ritternathan · Mar 10, 2016

Is your B Na2CO3 or K? I have mixed and used a HQ variant of Pyrocat without problems. I like the version HQ-PC. Let me pull out my notes and see if I find anything.

Wayne · Mar 11, 2016

I used Na2C03. And its a Yankee tank, if it matters.

ritternathan · Mar 11, 2016

I have a patterson and use the torus agitation method. It's something like this: pick up the tank and turn it upside down while twisting it. I think youtube is your friend here.

Rick A · Mar 11, 2016

ritternathan said:
I have a patterson and use the torus agitation method. It's something like this: pick up the tank and turn it upside down while twisting it. I think youtube is your friend here.

The OP cannot do that with his tank.

Doremus Scudder · Mar 11, 2016

I'm thinking that the developer in your tank is not covering the film entirely and that the stain is from aerial oxidation on the unsubmerged top portion. So, the question is: is that stripe from the top or the bottom of the tank when the film is in there? And, are there areas in the images with less density, but lots of stain that correspond to the stripe?

You might want to take the top off the tank, put in the reel and pour in 15 oz. of water and see how much it really covers.

Good luck finding your problem,

Doremus

Wayne · Mar 11, 2016

Unfortunately I've never noted where the banding is before I take the film out of the reel. I always assumed it was on the bottom, but like you, I've come to think the top makes much more sense.

I checked the level with 15 oz in there, and it does cover the film but just barely. The spirals on the reel end aren't even fully submerged with 15 oz. I can get another 1 oz in there, but then it some splashes out when I agitate it. I'll use 16 oz on the next reel of HP5 to see what happens, but I think a better tank is probably the answer for use with this developer.

TheFlyingCamera · Mar 11, 2016

Yankee Tanks blow chunks. At least for 4x5 they do. Because of the design of the film-holding ridges in the rack for the tank, you get a lot of developer surge around the edges and pronounced overdevelopment of the film in close proximity to the ridges. I'd suspect the reel design in your roll film tank is at least a contributory factor. Get a new tank and reels- Jobo and/or stainless steel.

Sirius Glass · Mar 11, 2016

TheFlyingCamera said:
Yankee Tanks blow chunks. At least for 4x5 they do. Because of the design of the film-holding ridges in the rack for the tank, you get a lot of developer surge around the edges and pronounced overdevelopment of the film in close proximity to the ridges. I'd suspect the reel design in your roll film tank is at least a contributory factor. Get a new tank and reels- Jobo and/or stainless steel.

If the Yankee 4"x5" tanks only blew chunks, then that would be an improvement for them. They also slosh chemicals over the side. While they are expensive the Jobo 3010 Expert Drum [up to 10 4"x5" sheets at a time] is well worth the cost and when one considers how many trouble free well processed sheets of film will be put through it over its lifetime the cost is minimal.

Wayne · Mar 11, 2016

Yep I'm aware of the 4x5 Yankee complaints, but I can't say that I've heard much feedback on their 120 tanks. Some people are even actually happy with the 4x5 tanks. Go figure. But I've got my eyes peeled for another cheap/free/local tank. Jobo/stainless probably aint gonna happen anytime soon though.

Wayne · Mar 11, 2016

Wayne said:
Jobo/stainless probably aint gonna happen anytime soon though.

Oh, well, I take that back. I thought stainless would be expensive but I googled and it isn't. Guess I'll have to research what kind of inexpensive tank to buy. Jobo still ain't happening.

Gerald C Koch · Mar 13, 2016

Just what is in the HQ-only variant of Pyrocat HD besides HQ? Curious as to what is left.

Ian Grant · Mar 13, 2016

I've been using Pyrocat HD for many years now in various tanks inc a Yankee 5x4 and have never seen that staining, It's possible your developer Part A is on the turn and already oxidised slightly,this accelerates when mixed with the carbonate. I found Part A keeps very well (over 3 years) if you've used reasonably fresh Metabisulphite, and also the type of bottle is critical it goes off fast in low density plastic bottles.

Ian

Wayne · Mar 13, 2016

Gerald C Koch said:
Just what is in the HQ-only variant of Pyrocat HD besides HQ? Curious as to what is left.

HQ is just the "only" reducing agent as it replaces the catechol. There's the normal set of ingredients otherwise.

Wayne · Mar 13, 2016

Ian Grant said:
I've been using Pyrocat HD for many years now in various tanks inc a Yankee 5x4 and have never seen that staining, It's possible your developer Part A is on the turn and already oxidised slightly,this accelerates when mixed with the carbonate. I found Part A keeps very well (over 3 years) if you've used reasonably fresh Metabisulphite, and also the type of bottle is critical it goes off fast in low density plastic bottles.

Ian

You may be on to something here, as I was wondering about this myself. Part A started turning faintly yellowish within a few weeks, but not enough to discourage me from using it. Plus I didn't have any fresh stuff available. The HQ crystals looked fine before I mixed it but it had been sitting around for a number of years. I now have a fresh batch of HQ so I'll mix a new Part A and use another oz of solution

I've also had a couple recent rolls turn out with a somewhat foggy look so maybe I'm getting a slight aerial stain due to funky Part A as well. I'm new enough to staining developers that I don't know if that's likely but it seems plausible. I'm also getting more grain than I'd expect in 8x10 prints from 6x7 negs.

Wayne · Mar 26, 2016

I realized yesterday that I forgot to add the sodium metabisulfite to my Part A. But I'm not sure, does that even play a role as a preservative in Pyrocat or is it's only function to synergize the P and Q, like I've read in older posts?

Thanks to the explosion of home brewing I can find USP grade metabisulfite locally now so maybe I'll just preserve my Kodak jars for posterity. They look awfully nice just sitting on the shelf.

120 edge banding in near-Pyrocat HD

Wayne

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