120 and Paterson Multi-Reel 3 Tank

StevenPituch · May 7, 2015

Hi All,
I have been using Ilford DD-X 1:4 to develop HP5+ film. I am using an AP tank. I put two 120 rolls on a single 220 reel, both in succession. I use 120 ml DD-X and 480 ml H2O as the instructions for the AP tank say to use 600 ml solution. That works out to 60 ml DD-X solution per roll. The DD-X literature states that 62.5 ml per roll is required. Well, I think that is close enough. I have had no problems with this setup.

I have wanted to develop 4 rolls of film at a time. So I bought a Paterson multi-reel 3 tank. I can easily fit my two 220 AP reels in this tank. Paterson says to use 1000 ml solution, so for DD-X 1:4 it looks like I would use 200 ml DD-X and 800 ml H2O. But that is only 50 ml per roll of film (4 rolls), quite a bit less than the required 62.5 ml. If I use 62.5 ml DD-X per roll in this tank I would need to use 250 ml DD-X and 1000 ml H2O. I tried putting 1250 ml of solution in the Paterson tank and not much air remains at the top. I am afraid that I would not get the proper agitation when I inverted the tank. So I may have screwed myself buying the multi-reel 3 tank.

Has anyone gotten through this, or have some suggestions?

Regards,
Steve Pituch

480sparky · May 7, 2015

You do not invert the MultiReel 3. You agitate by rotating/spinning the reels in the tanks.

StevenPituch · May 7, 2015

480sparky,
I guess that would work. The instructions say to use the agitator 3 or 4 times after pouring in the solution, and then inverting the tank once per minute afterwards. Do you leave the cap off and turn the agitator several times each minute? Have you gotten any streaking this way?

Steve

480sparky · May 7, 2015

Maybe you have a different system than what I have.... my instructions say to just spin. You'd have to put the cap on to invert it, otherwise your chems will drain out. But the cap has to be off to spin the reels. I've tried inverting this tank with the cap on (and just testing it with tap water) and I lost so much water I would be fearful of losing chemicals that the top edge of film may not be covered towards the end of that step.

But I do tip the tank a bit in addition to the spinning. I don't think spinning alone is enough agitation and may be more like stand developing.

heterolysis · May 7, 2015

When I learned to develop film it was always "invert, invert, invert!" but Patterson tanks are meant to be spun and I have slowly changed my methods and never had any issues. The rubber caps are always a bit leaky when inverting and this is particularly problematic when doing C-41!

The DD-X data sheet (online) says to dilute 200/800 with water for a 1L tank and I see no mention of what it should be "per roll". Just make sure your reels are submerged.

480sparky · May 8, 2015

My tank has the required fluid amounts embossed on the bottom.

So if you're just doing one roll of 35mm, you need only 290ml of soup.

MattKing · May 8, 2015

The DD-X data sheet does specify a capacity of 16 rolls per litre at 1 + 4, or 62.5 ml per roll. But see my comments below.

What version of the Paterson tanks do you have?

The current, Super System 4 have black caps that extend to the outside of the tank, and seal much like the top of a "Tupperware" container. The instructions for them are as posted by StevenPituch above: "The instructions say to use the agitator 3 or 4 times after pouring in the solution, and then inverting the tank once per minute afterwards.".

The older tanks, with the smaller gray (or red?) caps are different.

I don't use the rotary agitator at all. I start with continuous rotary agitation for the first 30 seconds, and then use inversion thereafter.

As for the capacity concerns, you might note that Ilford indicates that capacity can be increased if you increase development time with later rolls. With that in mind, and in consideration of the fact that the capacity figures are probably determined quite conservatively, I would suggest that you use 1000 ml of working solution, and increase the time by 10% over the more usual recommendations.

480sparky · May 8, 2015

Mine's the 'Tupperware' black lid. But as stated, I don't invert 'cause it leaks like a sumbeetch.

MattKing · May 8, 2015

480sparky said:
Mine's the 'Tupperware' black lid. But as stated, I don't invert 'cause it leaks like a sumbeetch.

It may be faulty then.

Do you "burp" it after attaching the lid?

I have several, and they only leak sometimes during the fixer stage, when I forget to burp them.

Xmas · May 8, 2015

I ignore the minimum amount of developer 'rule' never bother with agitating. Never had any bad effects.

It is not a good idea to bang a multi tank however.

You can invert to agitate but it is best to do it over a sink cause the caps can leak or fall off if not properly secured like you were careless.

480sparky · May 8, 2015

MattKing said:
It may be faulty then.

Do you "burp" it after attaching the lid?

I have several, and they only leak sometimes during the fixer stage, when I forget to burp them.

It's probably just worn. I bought it used. Burping only helps if I leave the funnel out, and that kinda defeats the purpose of a daylight tank.

gone · May 8, 2015

I tried that little twirly stick, and threw it as far as I could after getting surge marks on my film from the sprocket holes. This was the smaller Paterson System 4, 2 reel tank, which also recommended to twirl the reels if I remember correctly. Yes, the lid sometimes leaks a little when you invert it, especially if you don't burb it. No big deal. After I pitched that infernal stick, I never got surge marks on my negs again. Not once.

Maybe the bigger tanks work differently. I always give the tank a bump on the counter to dislodge bubbles on the negs. Never had any of those either. I place a small piece of soft pine 2x4 on the counter w/ a washrag over and under it, and bump the tank on that, rather than bump it on the hard Formica counter top. The wash rag catches any leakage too.

480sparky · May 8, 2015

I probably don't get the marks since I tip it a bit as part of the agitation. Not invert it. Just tip it to about 45° or so in several directions.

Ricardo Miranda · May 8, 2015

It seems to me that Americans are told to agitate, while we invert tanks.
I use an old System 4 Paterson multi-reel 3.
I always invert over a sink.
If I'm not careful, it leaks. But, that is my fault.

StevenPituch · May 8, 2015

Thanks everyone. This has been very helpful. I am a bit concerned about swirling with the agitator since I have 2 rolls on each reel and I don't want them to end up overlapping. I don't tape the one end down at the end to the large entry flange of the AP reel because it was too hit or miss in the dark. I haven't swirled since I had purchased a Yankee film developing kit with a plastic tank in 1965. Since then it's been 100% inversion. I was also a bit leery of the dilution of the DD-X since once a long time ago I was using a recommended diluted solution of D-76 and the negative ended up very thin. I then figured out that I was using way too little of the stock solution. I know the Jobo reels with the 120 separator clips would have been ideal, but a Jobo system was over my budget.

By going with the 50 ml per roll I will also save a little money since the DD-X is quite expensive. My first choice would have been HC-110, but I now do not live near B&H in NYC and they won't ship HC-110 (pickup only).

I have been shooting Delta 3200 at EI 800, and HP5+ at box speed, and getting a pretty thin negative but with good shadow detail with the recommended times (in the AP tank). But since I digitize the negative I can restore the contrast in Photo Shop. Since it's exactly a 20% decrease in dilution going from 62.5 ml to 50, I may try increasing the 9 minute developing time to 11 minutes, as the increase in contrast should be OK. With this thin a negative using a longer time should not hurt.

So I will try 4 120 rolls tonight on the AP reels in the multi-reel 3 tank using 200 ml DD-X and 800 ml H2O for 11 minutes at 68 degsF.

The wood base and towel is a good idea as I sometimes tap a little too hard and the Patterson tanks are a little thin.

Thank again everyone.

Steve Pituch

Kyle M. · May 8, 2015

Xmas said:
It is not a good idea to bang a multi tank however.

I found that one out the hard way my paterson universal tank cracked about 3 weeks ago after a whack on the edge of the kitchen counter. It lasted through almost 2 years of that, I went out and bought another universal and a multi reel 3 tank to replace it, now I just use a light tap with my hand.

Peltigera · May 8, 2015

If you are swirling for agitation you do not need to swirl very fast - the idea is just to get fresh chemicals to the film surface. You also need to swirl in both directions to ensure even development.

mfohl · May 8, 2015

I had a very bad experience twirling a roll of 120 film. Developed OK on the edges but not in the center. After that, I always invert. Ditto Momus on that one.

Xmas · May 8, 2015

I never agitate cept with the Agfa daylight tanks which only have half the reel in liquid.

Never have problems with 35, 120, or 220.

I do get sprocket surge marks but they disappear if I put the film back in fixer...

StevenPituch · May 11, 2015

Update:
I developed four 120 rolls last night using the Paterson tank and 2 AP 120 reels. These AP reels are very nice but I have had a little bit of overlap before when developing two 120 rolls on one AP reel in the AP tank (nothing critical). This time I probably swirled too fast during the 1st 30 seconds, because I ended up with a 5 frame overlap on one of the reels. With the one roll that was emulsion side towards the other roll, the 5 frames look undeveloped and needed to be manually fixed afterwards. Overall the procedure using only 50 ml per roll of DD-X worked well. I developed for 11 minutes instead of 9, and the megatives look good. I may use 10 and a half minutes next time.

I bit the bullet and ordered two Jobo 1501 reels last night. They are still available here: http://www.ebay.com/itm/NEW-IN-BOX-...h-red-tab-for-1500-system-tanks-/281457037697 These reels have the red center divider to keep the two 120 rolls from overlapping. However, I don't think the Jobo reels have the ball bearing end locks as I don't think they are meant for swirling agitation (probably roller processing), so I still need to avoid swirling quickly, or avoiding swirling completely and doing one inversion series immediately after filling the tank. I should have another four 120 rolls to process next week, so I will do another update then.

Sincerely,
Steve Pituch

mhcfires · May 12, 2015

StevenPituch said:
Thanks everyone. This has been very helpful. I am a bit concerned about swirling with the agitator since I have 2 rolls on each reel and I don't want them to end up overlapping. I don't tape the one end down at the end to the large entry flange of the AP reel because it was too hit or miss in the dark. I haven't swirled since I had purchased a Yankee film developing kit with a plastic tank in 1965. Since then it's been 100% inversion. I was also a bit leery of the dilution of the DD-X since once a long time ago I was using a recommended diluted solution of D-76 and the negative ended up very thin. I then figured out that I was using way too little of the stock solution. I know the Jobo reels with the 120 separator clips would have been ideal, but a Jobo system was over my budget.

By going with the 50 ml per roll I will also save a little money since the DD-X is quite expensive. My first choice would have been HC-110, but I now do not live near B&H in NYC and they won't ship HC-110 (pickup only).

I have been shooting Delta 3200 at EI 800, and HP5+ at box speed, and getting a pretty thin negative but with good shadow detail with the recommended times (in the AP tank). But since I digitize the negative I can restore the contrast in Photo Shop. Since it's exactly a 20% decrease in dilution going from 62.5 ml to 50, I may try increasing the 9 minute developing time to 11 minutes, as the increase in contrast should be OK. With this thin a negative using a longer time should not hurt.

So I will try 4 120 rolls tonight on the AP reels in the multi-reel 3 tank using 200 ml DD-X and 800 ml H2O for 11 minutes at 68 degsF.

The wood base and towel is a good idea as I sometimes tap a little too hard and the Patterson tanks are a little thin.

Thank again everyone.

Steve Pituch

If you want HC-110 order from Freestyle. They will ship.

m

GarageBoy · May 12, 2015

Inverting is not that difficult- at most you lose a few drops...

480sparky · May 12, 2015

GarageBoy said:
Inverting is not that difficult- at most you lose a few drops...

Inverting is no issue. And you may lose a few drops, but I lose a whole lot more.

MattKing · May 12, 2015

480sparky said:
Inverting is no issue. And you may lose a few drops, but I lose a whole lot more.

Yesterday I developed 8 rolls of film (some 120, some 35mm, some Plus-X and some TMY-2) in four different tanks - 2 Paterson and 2 AP.

Inversion agitation for the development cycles.

Nary a drop lost in the development cycles. A small amount in the stop bath, fixer and HCA cycles (where I use rotary agitation).

It is time for a new tank.

Xmas · May 12, 2015

StevenPituch said:
Hi All,
I have been using Ilford DD-X 1:4 to develop HP5+ film. I am using an AP tank. I put two 120 rolls on a single 220 reel, both in succession. I use 120 ml DD-X and 480 ml H2O as the instructions for the AP tank say to use 600 ml solution. That works out to 60 ml DD-X solution per roll. The DD-X literature states that 62.5 ml per roll is required. Well, I think that is close enough. I have had no problems with this setup.

I have wanted to develop 4 rolls of film at a time. So I bought a Paterson multi-reel 3 tank. I can easily fit my two 220 AP reels in this tank. Paterson says to use 1000 ml solution, so for DD-X 1:4 it looks like I would use 200 ml DD-X and 800 ml H2O. But that is only 50 ml per roll of film (4 rolls), quite a bit less than the required 62.5 ml. If I use 62.5 ml DD-X per roll in this tank I would need to use 250 ml DD-X and 1000 ml H2O. I tried putting 1250 ml of solution in the Paterson tank and not much air remains at the top. I am afraid that I would not get the proper agitation when I inverted the tank. So I may have screwed myself buying the multi-reel 3 tank.

Has anyone gotten through this, or have some suggestions?

Regards,
Steve Pituch

I have trouble loading 120 or 220 on to spirals... Well impressed. I use the 8 off tanks.

If you get thin negs try more time.

With d76 or clones I use stock and filter after.

If you want economy Rodinal at 1:100 is ok in multi tank.

I only use enough to cover the top spiral and invert over a bath to avoid chemical spill problems.

120 and Paterson Multi-Reel 3 Tank

StevenPituch

480sparky

StevenPituch

480sparky

heterolysis

480sparky

MattKing

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480sparky

MattKing

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Xmas

480sparky

gone

480sparky

Ricardo Miranda

StevenPituch

Kyle M.

Peltigera

mfohl

Xmas

StevenPituch

mhcfires

GarageBoy

480sparky

MattKing

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Xmas

120 and Paterson Multi-Reel 3 Tank

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