120 6x6 frame spacing

Dan Daniel · Jan 11, 2024

I wonder what people consider 'consistent' frame spacing. Testing a recent issue, I am now 'here' (see photo) on a Rolleiflex. There's a bit of a 'stutter' every three frames with a wider gap between 3/4, 6/7, 9/10 (1 being the left end, but heck you get the same thing either direction!).

People here have used so many cameras with so many different mechanisms, I'm curious. I am under the impression that a Hasselblad is very consistent, and that my sample below might be too erratic for a Hasselblad. I seem to remember using Bronicas that were very consistent. For me the sample is very good for a Rolleiflex but maybe it is off in other people's experiences.

So if this came out of your camera would you think something was off?

Andreas Thaler · Jan 11, 2024

I operate my Nikon F3/T with the Motor Drive MD-4 and the distances between the images are often different. But as long as the images don't overlap, I'll live with it. Of course you can adjust it (not me at this time), but I don't think it's necessary.

The strip you show looks good.

BrianShaw · Jan 11, 2024

^^^^^
This… except I wouldn’t even think of trying to adjust it.

Alan Edward Klein · Jan 11, 2024

My Mamiya RB67 Pro shooting 6x7 pictures has gaps that vary.

Hassasin · Jan 11, 2024

"Perfect" frame to frame spacing is possibly possible with Koni-Omega rapid. I can't think of another system that gives that in MF cameras. And I do not own Koni, just guessing from the film advance design.

bernard_L · Jan 11, 2024

Your strip looks as good as, or better than any of my auto-advance MF cameras.
Apart from the uniformity of the gaps, I sometimes wish the blank film at the ends would be (in part) used to increase the gaps.

jimjm · Jan 11, 2024

For a roll-film camera, that looks pretty acceptable to me. I wouldn't be too concerned.
I've had Mamiya TLR's and some older folding cameras that had problems with overlap.

Hassasin · Jan 11, 2024

Dan Daniel said:
I wonder what people consider 'consistent' frame spacing. Testing a recent issue, I am now 'here' (see photo) on a Rolleiflex. There's a bit of a 'stutter' every three frames with a wider gap between 3/4, 6/7, 9/10 (1 being the left end, but heck you get the same thing either direction!).

People here have used so many cameras with so many different mechanisms, I'm curious. I am under the impression that a Hasselblad is very consistent, and that my sample below might be too erratic for a Hasselblad. I seem to remember using Bronicas that were very consistent. For me the sample is very good for a Rolleiflex but maybe it is off in other people's experiences.

So if this came out of your camera would you think something was off?

View attachment 359330

This is as perfect as one could possibly expect.

retina_restoration · Jan 11, 2024

Dan Daniel said:
So if this came out of your camera would you think something was off?

View attachment 359330

Nope.

DareFail · Jan 11, 2024

My KIEV 60 gives always 13 full frames without overlapping and the spacing is not consistent.
Why do you care that much about your almost perfect frame spacing?

Dan Daniel · Jan 11, 2024

DareFail said:
My KIEV 60 gives always 13 full frames without overlapping and the spacing is not consistent.
Why do you care that much about your almost perfect frame spacing?

My concern is if uneven spacing is an indicator of something being dirty, worn, etc., and that it will only keep getting worse until I do get overlapping, etc.

Hassasin said:
"Perfect" frame to frame spacing is possibly possible with Koni-Omega rapid. I can't think of another system that gives that in MF cameras. And I do not own Koni, just guessing from the film advance design.

The Kodak Medalist is darn even. It uses a 25mm diameter gear with one notch for the frame spacing pawl. It rotates fully for each frame. This allows for nice smooth fine toothed gearing and large motion so that small variances won't affect spacing. ~9cm of film travel is geared to about 75mm of pawl notch travel.

Unlike something like the Rollei which has a 25mm disk with 12 notches cut into ~3/4 of the radius, one for each frame for the pawl to drop into. So ~60cm of film traveled is geared to about 2.5mm of notch travel. Any little variance can be reflected in actual frame spacing.

Thanks all for the responses. Any other cameras and users want to chime, please do.

chuckroast · Jan 11, 2024

Dan Daniel said:
I wonder what people consider 'consistent' frame spacing. Testing a recent issue, I am now 'here' (see photo) on a Rolleiflex. There's a bit of a 'stutter' every three frames with a wider gap between 3/4, 6/7, 9/10 (1 being the left end, but heck you get the same thing either direction!).

People here have used so many cameras with so many different mechanisms, I'm curious. I am under the impression that a Hasselblad is very consistent, and that my sample below might be too erratic for a Hasselblad. I seem to remember using Bronicas that were very consistent. For me the sample is very good for a Rolleiflex but maybe it is off in other people's experiences.

So if this came out of your camera would you think something was off?

View attachment 359330

This is normal in my experience.

The many Mamiya TLRs I've owned over the years had some inter-frame spacing variability.

I just had Mark Hama CLA my Yashica-MAT 124G and it also has some variability in this regard.

I just also had a Fuji GW690II CLAed and it also has this variability.

Interestingly, my Fuji GA645Zi has a computer/automated frame advance system which is very consistent frame-to-frame.

In general, manually advanced film transports seem to have this variation naturally. As you point out, the exception is Hasselblad which manages to be both a manual advance mechanism and highly consistent.

tl;dr Unless you are getting frame overlap, don't worry about this.

DWThomas · Jan 11, 2024

Looks pretty "normal" to me. I have a Yashica TLR, two folders, and a Bronica SQ-A. The Bronica has a sort of metering roller which can be fairly consistent. The others use a knurled sensing wheel against the film backing or some sort of auto-adjustment managed by a notched cam or similar. Any of the latter are likely to be affected by film or backing paper thickness, relative humidity, phase of the moon .... So a strip like you show looks good to me.

Like Bernard, I'd like to see the frames distributed to use most of the film. That would make it easier to cut the film into segments and leave enough for an enlarging carrier to grip all sides. That said, my Perkeo II can get 13 6x6 frames on a roll without overlapping them. Of course 13 exposures don't fit evenly in the usual negative storage pages, so I usually stop with 12.

bernard_L · Jan 11, 2024

chuckroast said:
tl;dr Unless you are getting frame overlap, don't worry about this.

DWThomas said:
That would make it easier to cut the film into segments and leave enough for an enlarging carrier to grip all sides.

Exactly! Problems arise before we get to frame overlap.

Hassasin · Jan 11, 2024

Dan Daniel said:
My concern is if uneven spacing is an indicator of something being dirty, worn, etc., and that it will only keep getting worse until I do get overlapping, etc.

The Kodak Medalist is darn even. It uses a 25mm diameter gear with one notch for the frame spacing pawl. It rotates fully for each frame. This allows for nice smooth fine toothed gearing and large motion so that small variances won't affect spacing. ~9cm of film travel is geared to about 75mm of pawl notch travel.

Unlike something like the Rollei which has a 25mm disk with 12 notches cut into ~3/4 of the radius, one for each frame for the pawl to drop into. So ~60cm of film traveled is geared to about 2.5mm of notch travel. Any little variance can be reflected in actual frame spacing.

Thanks all for the responses. Any other cameras and users want to chime, please do.

In all honesty nothing beats red window when it comes to spacing, but it does take a keen eye to nail each number in same spot on successive frames

chuckroast · Jan 11, 2024

bernard_L said:
Exactly! Problems arise before we get to frame overlap.

Yes, but some variation in interframe spacing is entirely normal. While we'd love this not to be the case, aside from Hasselblad backs, I've never seen a manually advanced film system from any manufacturer that maintains perfect spacing. So, why worry about normal operation?

Hassasin · Jan 11, 2024

chuckroast said:
Yes, but some variation in interframe spacing is entirely normal. While we'd love this not to be the case, aside from Hasselblad backs, I've never seen a manually advanced film system from any manufacturer that maintains perfect spacing. So, why worry about normal operation?

Are you saying Hasselblad backs have equal frame spacing? Because that is most certainly not the case. And spacing I get on Bronica, and Mamiya is in same ball park. I think Pentax 645 has it pretty close to as good as it can be.

chuckroast · Jan 11, 2024

Hassasin said:
Are you saying Hasselblad backs have equal frame spacing? Because that is most certainly not the case. And spacing I get on Bronica, and Mamiya is in same ball park. I think Pentax 645 has it pretty close to as good as it can be.

I dunno anout "equal" but I get considerably better/more consistent spacing with my A12 backs. Maybe it's because I bought them new and they have not been heavily used.

Hassasin · Jan 11, 2024

chuckroast said:
I dunno anout "equal" but I get considerably better/more consistent spacing with my A12 backs. Maybe it's because I bought them new and they have not been heavily used.

Fair enough, also, as most things Hasselblad, they also need a lot more servicing to stay tuned than any other brand.

Sirius Glass · Jan 11, 2024

Hassasin said:
Are you saying Hasselblad backs have equal frame spacing? Because that is most certainly not the case. And spacing I get on Bronica, and Mamiya is in same ball park. I think Pentax 645 has it pretty close to as good as it can be.

My Hasselblad repair man loads a spare roll of 120 film in the back with the dark slide removed. He advances the film to the first frame, takes a ball point pen and traces the outline of the frame on the paper. He advances the frame and repeats the process for each frame. Then he unloads the film, stretch out the paper and look at the framing. Every time I buy a film back [lens or body], the first thing I have him do is check out the back's seals and spacing.

kl122002 · Jan 12, 2024

I have never seen any consistent spacing in 120 camera, except using red window. Each camera, even they are the same model still varies. The best to avoid overlapping is to advance the film gently and slow and fill the click to stop.

The most narrow spacing is my Pentacon Six that has just 2-3 mm between each frame, making it 13 exposures (+0.5 frame at the very end) on each 120 roll. The wildest seems like Koniflex TLR what has 6-8mm .with 12 counts.

Kino · Jan 12, 2024

I would be quite happy with that spacing.

Pretty typical for just about ever medium format camera (that has "automatic" frame spacing" that I have used. As others have stated, as long as there are no overlaps, I am unconcerned.

Cameras:
Kiev 88, Kiev 6a, Pentax 645, Mamiya 645 Pro 1000, Rollieflexes, Rolliecords, Ricohflex Dia, Kowa 6, etc.

Usually when I do have some overlap, I can trace it to a mistake I made when loading the camera and got sloppy or was in a hurry.

120 6x6 frame spacing

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