120 & 220 tanks & reels

srs5694 · Dec 7, 2007

Hi,

I've been (very) occasionally shooting medium format (120) film for the past year or so. I've been developing it in an oddball plastic Russian tank I picked up a while back, which works fairly well but leaks a bit more than I'd like, particularly when I develop C-41 film. I recently got a new (to me) Kiev 6C camera, so I expect to be doing more MF shooting, and I'm thinking of upgrading my developing hardware. For 35mm, I generally use a stainless steel tank and Hewes reels, which I prefer to my Russian tank and greatly prefer to my plastic AP (Paterson clone) tank and reels. (I find the AP and Paterson reels often jam partway through loading.) In researching the matter, I've found that there are different SS reels for 120 and 220 film. Since the Kiev 6C can take both types of film, I'm likely to end up shooting both types, so I'm wondering if I'd really need both types of reels. Can the shorter 120 film be spooled onto a 220 reel without causing development problems? I was thinking of getting a Hewes reel, but if there are other suggestions, I'd be interested in hearing them.

Also, I have a vague recollection of having heard about reels that can take two 120 rolls for development in a tank that's only big enough for two 35mm or one MF reel. If there are SS reels like this, I'd appreciate hearing about them. If this is a feature of a particular plastic tank system, I might consider buying one instead of new SS reel(s).

Thanks for any input.

David A. Goldfarb · Dec 7, 2007

I have both, and I often use Hewes 220 reels for 120. There is no problem at all doing this, and because the Hewes reels are well made, a Hewes 220 reel can be easier to load than some of the cheaper reels.

The film spacing in a 220 reel that fits a standard tank is the same as for 35mm. There used to be larger 220 reels that required a larger tank, and sometimes you see them for sale used.

Konical · Dec 7, 2007

Good Evening, SRS5694,

As far as I know, there's no problem in development if you load 120 in a 220 reel. Some users load two 120 rolls back to back on a single reel; an apparently more common practice is loading two 120 rolls in train onto ratcheting-type plastic reels. To me, all this kind of manipulation seems more trouble than it's worth, given the bargain prices for SS reels and tanks on the used market. Thinking about Hewes reels is OK; getting some is even better. For 120, however, give serious consideration to Kinderman reels. They have a puncturing pin in the center which positively locks onto the film and makes loading dead easy. They're very cheap used and are of virtually equal quality to Hewes.

Konical

dpurdy · Dec 8, 2007

My hat is off to anyone who can load 220 film onto one of the new type 220 stainless steel reels that have spacing like a 35mm reel. I absolutely can not do it. I have a bunch of the old type 220 reels that are more like 5 inches diameter and have spacing like a normal 120 reel but are larger to accomodate more film. Those load like a dream but you have to have a bigger tank to process them in of course.

Certainly no problem loading 120 on one of my reels.

Mick Fagan · Dec 8, 2007

There is one plastic tank system designed to take either one 120 roll, or two 120 rolls on the same reel.

It is the Jobo 1520 tank with one reel.

The reel will do either one 135 roll, one 120 roll, two 120 rolls, or one 220 roll.

Add an extra reel, then you can do two 135 rolls as well.

For rotary processing this tank requires 240ml (250 for safety) or 470ml for inversion (500 for ease of mixing)

There are other tanks and reels in the Jobo system capable of doing this as well, but the 1500 series of tanks and reels are everywhere.

The 1500 reels also load film far easier than plastic reels that use small ball bearing type film grabbers.

Mick.

Keith Pitman · Dec 8, 2007

David A. Goldfarb said:
There used to be larger 220 reels that required a larger tank, and sometimes you see them for sale used.

I picked up some of the "larger" 220 reels (made by Hewes for Arkay) on ebay. They do not fit into my Nikor tanks. Any suggestions on where I can find a tank (stainless preferred), or at least a brand name for such a tank, that will accept the larger reels?

David A. Goldfarb · Dec 8, 2007

Nikor made the larger tanks. I'm not sure if the large 220 reels might fit in the Nikor sheet film tank, which would be another possibility, but those usually go for around $135 or so with the sheet-film cage.

srs5694 · Dec 8, 2007

Mick Fagan said:
There is one plastic tank system designed to take either one 120 roll, or two 120 rolls on the same reel.

It is the Jobo 1520 tank with one reel.

The reel will do either one 135 roll, one 120 roll, two 120 rolls, or one 220 roll.

Thanks for the pointer. I just looked at the photo of the reel on B&H, and I see the clip in the photo that the B&H item description mentions, but I'm unclear of how that works. Do you load it like a Paterson reel, from the outside in, but just keep pushing the first roll in to the core and then set the clip to keep the second roll from overlapping the first? The lack of a ball bearing sounds like a plus -- I tried loading a 120 roll on an AP reel once, and it just jammed on the ball bearing. Fortunately I had my Russian tank ready as a backup, and I used it. (The Russian tank's reel loads from the outside in but has no ball bearing.) Do you use a twisting motion with the Jobo to load it, or is there some other method or trick?

Thanks to everybody else for their pointers, as well. Fortunately, I've got a tank that works right now, albeit a bit leakily, so I'm not desperate to rush a decision.

dpurdy · Dec 8, 2007

If you can process in the dark there are a lot of options with open tops for larger reels. I use irrigation tubes with a base glued on the bottom that hold 8 rolls 220. Also I have used regular water pitchers and I even have a very nice processing tank that was intended to hold toilet paper.. plain white plastic tank that holds 5 rolls of film and even has a nice clear lid.

Lopaka · Dec 8, 2007

srs5694 said:
Do you load it like a Paterson reel, from the outside in, but just keep pushing the first roll in to the core and then set the clip to keep the second roll from overlapping the first?

That is correct.

Edwardv · Dec 8, 2007

dpurdy said:
My hat is off to anyone who can load 220 film onto one of the new type 220 stainless steel reels that have spacing like a 35mm reel. I absolutely can not do it.

Certainly no problem loading 120 on one of my reels.

Hear! Hear!

Konical · Dec 8, 2007

Good Afternoon,

I agree with dpurdy and Edwardv. Maybe it's because of a lack of practice (my most-used film are T-100 and T-400, both unavailable in 220), but I also find 220 reels very tricky to load. The larger-diameter reels are somewhat easier than the thin-guage ones, but only marginally. What's so striking to me is that loading a standard 120 SS reel ranks as about the simplest, quickest thing going. For me, that ease just doesn't carry over to the 220 reels.

Konical

resummerfield · Dec 8, 2007

David A. Goldfarb said:
Nikor made the larger tanks. I'm not sure if the large 220 reels might fit in the Nikor sheet film tank, which would be another possibility,......

Yes, the large Nikor 4.5-inch 220 reels will fit the Nikor 4x5 tank, but while the Nikor 4.5-inch tank can hold 2 of the larger reels, the Nikor 4x5 tank is shorter and can only fit one reel.

dpurdy · Dec 8, 2007

Konical said:
Good Afternoon,

I agree with dpurdy and Edwardv. Maybe it's because of a lack of practice (my most-used film are T-100 and T-400, both unavailable in 220), but I also find 220 reels very tricky to load. The larger-diameter reels are somewhat easier than the thin-guage ones, but only marginally. What's so striking to me is that loading a standard 120 SS reel ranks as about the simplest, quickest thing going. For me, that ease just doesn't carry over to the 220 reels.

Konical

I am sure it is just a matter of a little practice. I find the large 220 reels so easy to load I can do it with my eyes closed. (;

spiralcity · Dec 9, 2007

(I find the AP and Paterson reels often jam partway through loading.)

Plastic tanks take a bit longer to completley dry than the stainless tanks. This is the biggest problem when loading the reel. Make sure your tanks are completley dry, then load them. It is much easier to load a dry tank.

Reinhold · Dec 9, 2007

dpurdy said:
If you can process in the dark there are a lot of options with open tops for larger reels. I use irrigation tubes with a base glued on the bottom that hold 8 rolls 220. Also I have used regular water pitchers and I even have a very nice processing tank that was intended to hold toilet paper.. plain white plastic tank that holds 5 rolls of film and even has a nice clear lid.

I'll second the use of plastic tubes for the larger 220 reels. The reels are 4-1/4 inches in diameter, and fit nicely into 4-1/2 inch I.D. plastic cylinders. I made a bunch of 12 inch tall cylinders to process 4 reels at a swat, using lifting rods made from stainless gas welding rod. I set 4 cylinders on the counter, fill them with the appropriate juices, turn out the lights and have at it. Been doing it that way for 25+ years.

You can see the cylinders on the top shelf above my deep sinks at:
http://www.classicbwphoto.com/Darkroom.html

Reinhold

SuzanneR · Dec 9, 2007

dpurdy said:
I am sure it is just a matter of a little practice. I find the large 220 reels so easy to load I can do it with my eyes closed. (;

I find them easy to load. I messed up the very beginning of a roll the first time I used them, but since then, I find the 220 reels easy to load. Mine have a clip that you put the film under, and I do have to be sure the film is quite straight across. If I hear crinkly sounds, I just back up, and straighten things out.

Once it's straight, I can get the whole roll loaded in a few seconds. I'm not sure if mine are Hewes reels. I bought a couple new (*gasp*) two years ago. I couldn't find any used, and had some film I was anxious to process. I found two more used for a good price, a few months after that, so now I often process four rolls in two tanks at a time.

When I was looking to buy them, though, I couldn't find Hewes 220 reels, but bought some that were sold under the name "Samigon" name and the two used ones had the same clip. Anyone know if the Samigon reels, are, in fact, Hewes? After all, the Hewes 35mm reels are sold under the Jobo name here. (Or were, are they still??)

Konical · Dec 9, 2007

Good Morning,

Suzanne, I thought Hewes sold under the King Concept name here in the US. Jobo?? Don't know.

dpurdy · Dec 9, 2007

Reinhold said:
I'll second the use of plastic tubes for the larger 220 reels. The reels are 4-1/4 inches in diameter, and fit nicely into 4-1/2 inch I.D. plastic cylinders. I made a bunch of 12 inch tall cylinders to process 4 reels at a swat, using lifting rods made from stainless gas welding rod. I set 4 cylinders on the counter, fill them with the appropriate juices, turn out the lights and have at it. Been doing it that way for 25+ years.

You can see the cylinders on the top shelf above my deep sinks at:
http://www.classicbwphoto.com/Darkroom.html

Reinhold

Those look like the ones I made from tubes bought at Tap Plastic only I made mine 25 inches tall which is as tall as it can be and allow for me to lift the rod of reels clear out without having to stand on my tip toes. I use the stainless steel rods as well with a spiral bent on the bottom and a 90degree handle at top.

There are a lot of advantages to processing the way we do in the dark. For one thing you can leave all the tubes full of chemistry and just maintain temp in Winter with a bit of hot water on the sides. It is much faster than pouring chemistry in and out. In fact I store my chemistry in the tubes and just made floating lids. Another thing is that you can process films for different amounts of time in the same batch by varying when you take a roll out of the presoak and thread it on the rod the developer. And another benifit is you can do much better agitation. No streaks spots or anything else ever.
Dennis

dpurdy · Dec 9, 2007

SuzanneR said:
I find them easy to load. I messed up the very beginning of a roll the first time I used them, but since then, I find the 220 reels easy to load. Mine have a clip that you put the film under, and I do have to be sure the film is quite straight across. If I hear crinkly sounds, I just back up, and straighten things out.

Once it's straight, I can get the whole roll loaded in a few seconds. I'm not sure if mine are Hewes reels. I bought a couple new (*gasp*) two years ago. I couldn't find any used, and had some film I was anxious to process. I found two more used for a good price, a few months after that, so now I often process four rolls in two tanks at a time.

When I was looking to buy them, though, I couldn't find Hewes 220 reels, but bought some that were sold under the name "Samigon" name and the two used ones had the same clip. Anyone know if the Samigon reels, are, in fact, Hewes? After all, the Hewes 35mm reels are sold under the Jobo name here. (Or were, are they still??)

I have no idea what brand mine are. I have 8 of them and 7 have regular spring steel clips while one has a couple of teeth you push through the film to hold it. I keep an eye out for them at used photo gear places though I have all I can use right now. Took me a couple of years to collect 8.
Dennis

srs5694 · Dec 9, 2007

spiralcity said:
Plastic tanks take a bit longer to completley dry than the stainless tanks. This is the biggest problem when loading the reel. Make sure your tanks are completley dry, then load them. It is much easier to load a dry tank.

I'm aware of this. My plastic reels have jammed completely twice, and both times they had been drying for days. I suspect, but cannot prove, that humidity in the air was the culprit. I think you'll understand that being forced to cut a roll in half because it's jammed on the reel is a powerful incentive to find something better. In my case, it was Hewes stainless steel reels, which is why I'm favoring going that route for new 120/220 reels.

That said, the ability to fit two 120 rolls on a Jobo reel does sound appealing. Could the same thing be done by carefully taping together two 120 rolls and loading them on a 220 SS reel? (I'm imagining mostly loading the first roll and then taping the second one to it by feel.) My interest in this is motivated more by fill and drain times for C-41 processing than anything else; it takes 10-20 seconds to fill and drain two 35mm rolls in my SS tank or one MF roll in my Russian tank, and increasing that time with the short 3:15 time for C-41 development seems unwise. I realize that open-tank development can help on this score, but I'd rather not go that route unless I must.

Keith Pitman · Dec 26, 2007

David A. Goldfarb said:
Nikor made the larger tanks. I'm not sure if the large 220 reels might fit in the Nikor sheet film tank, which would be another possibility, but those usually go for around $135 or so with the sheet-film cage.

From reading the later posts, you are speaking of a different size of reel. I have some Hewes (marketed by Arkay) reels that are only slightly larger (< 1/8") than Nikor 120 reels I already had. They will not fit into a normal 35mm/120 tank, but are not large enough to require a Nikor 4x5 size tank.

Anyone have an idea where I can find a tank to take these larger 22 reels?

srs5694 · Dec 27, 2007

FWIW, as the thread's originator, I thought I'd post this update: I decided to pick up a couple of cheap no-name SS 220 reels on eBay and go from there -- if they didn't work out, I could buy some Hewes reels or a Jobo tank and reels. My first attempt at loading the no-name SS reels was a fiasco (fortunately I had my Russian tank ready as a standby), but after some more practicing I managed fine with my second roll. For me, the trick was getting the film into the same groove on the top and bottom of the reel. To do this, I feel with my fingers and, if necessary, push the film against the inner end of the spiral, where it forms a sort of ramp, about 1/2 turn away from the clip. Once the film is in the groove, the rest of it is easy.

haziz · Dec 30, 2007

If you are shooting 120 film then the Hewes 120 reels are a dream. Very solid and very easy to load. If you do in fact anticipate using a lot of 220 film then the older 220 reels and tanks (much bigger in diameter than the standard reels and tanks) are a good bet. Kinderman made 220 reels and large diameter tanks, Nikor also might have made some. I have the kinderman 220 reels and large diameter tank, but since the availabilty of 220 is now very limited and I usually use my usual films in 120 size, I use the standard 120 reels (Hewes) in a regular SS tank. I suggest you explore the same. You will find the Hewes 12o reels a pleasure to work with.

Sincerely,

Hany.

BobNewYork · Jan 5, 2008

Have to say, I've used the Paterson tanks for years with 220 without serious problems. I confess that once in a while I do get a jam but I think it's a result of older film with too tight a 'curl' to it. I have always found, though, that if I remove the jammed film and then place the other end in first that it goes on without problem. FWIW.

Bob

120 & 220 tanks & reels

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