120 220 bulk loading question

Cholentpot · Nov 27, 2019

So I have about 150 feet of 70mm film and a slitter to slit down to 120 size. Re-rolling into backing paper is a real pain. I was wondering if it's feasible to roll the film at a 120 length and attach a 220 header and tails to the film and roll through a regular 120 camera. As long as there's no film counter hole this should work in theory no?

Even more so if I roll it through a camera that can take 120 or 220 like my Bronica S2. Doesn't even need a special back. Has anyone tried something like this?

I've looked around and have not seen what I'm proposing. If anyone has a link or magic keywords I'll follow those until the destination.

gorbas · Nov 27, 2019

Is your film perforated or unperforated? I made a few 120 and 127 rolls from 70mm stock and did not find it hard at all. Honestly, it's harder to make 120 from perforated 70mm stock. You are short for about 1.5mm. So other solution is to include one row of perforation to 120 film and it was not acceptable for me. If you have or you buy slitter from guy on Ebay (I have link somewhere) it's quite easy to roll your own or it's just me? Did not bother with 220. My original goal was 127.

Cholentpot · Nov 27, 2019

gorbas said:
Is your film perforated or unperforated? I made a few 120 and 127 rolls from 70mm stock and did not find it hard at all. Honestly, it's harder to make 120 from perforated 70mm stock. You are short for about 1.5mm. So other solution is to include one row of perforation to 120 film and it was not acceptable for me. If you have or you buy slitter from guy on Ebay (I have link somewhere) it's quite easy to roll your own or it's just me? Did not bother with 220. My original goal was 127.

I have a slitter and unperforated film.

The issue is rolling onto backing paper. I have to use a dark bag and the rolling is tedious to say the least. It takes at least 2 rollings

1st roll on, make sure everything is straight and taped right. Then you roll it back and have the retape down the header because it humps up.

220 was simple by comparison.

I tested out a dummy roll just now in a couple cameras. The non-paper backing went almost perfectly through my M645 with the 120 insert and no issue with the 220, but it jammed on the last frame in the Yashica Mat.

gorbas · Nov 28, 2019

70mm unperforated film is going to make this possible. Doing everything in charging bag really can make your job miserable. I did my time in changing bags loading and unloading 16 and 35mm movie film magazines, so I know what I'm talking about. I can not see how you can slit, cut and make roll of film in the bag with out of plenty of dust, debris, scratches and fingerprints on your film?
Why do you need to roll it 2 times? One time is just enough. If you first secure start of the film then it's really tricky to line everything up and humps are quite common. But if you start rolling from the end of the film strip and then secure start of the film is much easier. You don't even have to be in the dark for securing tape on the film and backing paper. It can be done on subdued light with losing maybe less than inch of film.
I did develop just roll or two of 220 so I can not call myself 220 expert. Lining up and precisely cutting film to join and tape it to to use paper leader is absolute nightmare in changing bag or even i real darkroom. For that you most likely need some kind of splacer or jig for it?

Cholentpot · Nov 28, 2019

gorbas said:
70mm unperforated film is going to make this possible. Doing everything in charging bag really can make your job miserable. I did my time in changing bags loading and unloading 16 and 35mm movie film magazines, so I know what I'm talking about. I can not see how you can slit, cut and make roll of film in the bag with out of plenty of dust, debris, scratches and fingerprints on your film?
Why do you need to roll it 2 times? One time is just enough. If you first secure start of the film then it's really tricky to line everything up and humps are quite common. But if you start rolling from the end of the film strip and then secure start of the film is much easier. You don't even have to be in the dark for securing tape on the film and backing paper. It can be done on subdued light with losing maybe less than inch of film.
I did develop just roll or two of 220 so I can not call myself 220 expert. Lining up and precisely cutting film to join and tape it to to use paper leader is absolute nightmare in changing bag or even i real darkroom. For that you most likely need some kind of splacer or jig for it?

I do it in steps. I first measure out the 120 length using a dummy roll and then splice. Spliced roll goes into safe can and then everything is moved out of bag. In goes backing paper tape and spliced roll.

You say you roll from the back? You mark end point on paper, line up and then roll from there? Sounds like that might work better...I'll have to try it.

As for getting the film and leader lined up...I managed it...somehow? Thanks for the advice though, it may come into excellent use.

gorbas · Nov 28, 2019

For 120 (on light) I mark backing paper start and end of the film with paper clips so I can feel it in dark and I can easily remove it.
Backing paper is already rolled up to end mark to the empty roll. Tighten backing paper. Line up film and backing paper, it's quite simple fiddle since your film is proper width and it's not taped.
Roll backing paper and film until you are rolled up all your length of 120 film, feel paper clip.
Keep roll as tight as you can, if your other remaining film in the bag is light safe,
pull your hand with film from charging bag and on light (not super bright, usual room light) finish final trimming of the film to start mark, tape film to backing paper with masking or some other tape. Finish your rolling. Secure beginning of the roll.
What emulsion are you rolling up?
Did you participate on that 70mm film discussion at RFF? I think we "talked" over there once?
Hope I did help you in some way? Feel free to ask more but it's really simple process?
Happy shooting!

Cholentpot · Nov 28, 2019

gorbas said:
For 120 (on light) I mark backing paper start and end of the film with paper clips so I can feel it in dark and I can easily remove it.
Backing paper is already rolled up to end mark to the empty roll. Tighten backing paper. Line up film and backing paper, it's quite simple fiddle since your film is proper width and it's not taped.
Roll backing paper and film until you are rolled up all your length of 120 film, feel paper clip.
Keep roll as tight as you can, if your other remaining film in the bag is light safe,
pull your hand with film from charging bag and on light (not super bright, usual room light) finish final trimming of the film to start mark, tape film to backing paper with masking or some other tape. Finish your rolling. Secure beginning of the roll.
What emulsion are you rolling up?
Did you participate on that 70mm film discussion at RFF? I think we "talked" over there once?
Hope I did help you in some way? Feel free to ask more but it's really simple process?
Happy shooting!

Paper clips...good idea. Your method seems to be better than what I was doing. I'm going to give it a shot.

I bought some cans of BW400CN, Portra 400NC and a slitter off of a fellow 'PUGer. It's been a chore rolling it. Going the way of a 70mm back is a bit pricey as of yet.

I'm not sure we bumped into each other yet but I'm glad we did now! I'm going to give your method a shot and get back to you on results.

gorbas · Nov 28, 2019

For me the biggest expense for going with 70mm film back was CLA of it. Managed to get processing reel locally and affordable.
When you load 70mm Hasselblad magazine you lose about a foot + of film as loading leader. To do my usual film test it was waistfull so I turn to roll it to 120 until I figure out developing times. I'm using just BW films. Then I got some unperforated Rollei 25 so I made more 120 for my other camera.
It's quite affordable way of making your own 127. My son was heavily using 127 and prices for new film were outrageous, so I turned to 70mm and slitting. Not bad at all. Then he left 127 format and I was left with all that stock to terminate it for good. Endless fun!
If you have time and patience go thru thread at RFF. It's very informative and very looooong.

Cholentpot · Nov 28, 2019

gorbas said:
For me the biggest expense for going with 70mm film back was CLA of it. Managed to get processing reel locally and affordable.
When you load 70mm Hasselblad magazine you lose about a foot + of film as loading leader. To do my usual film test it was waistfull so I turn to roll it to 120 until I figure out developing times. I'm using just BW films. Then I got some unperforated Rollei 25 so I made more 120 for my other camera.
It's quite affordable way of making your own 127. My son was heavily using 127 and prices for new film were outrageous, so I turned to 70mm and slitting. Not bad at all. Then he left 127 format and I was left with all that stock to terminate it for good. Endless fun!
If you have time and patience go thru thread at RFF. It's very informative and very looooong.

I read this one...it goes on and on but I learned a lot. I'm going to bookmark it though so I can get a reference.

Maco Direct has Rolli 400 unperf (which I read is really 200) and if you buy two rolls shipping is free. I might get some of that at a later date. I'd rather shoot B&W but i'm not going to complain about having some color. The BW400CN feels like a waste of C-41 chemistry though, film is very nice however.

Cholentpot · Nov 28, 2019

gorbas said:
For me the biggest expense for going with 70mm film back was CLA of it. Managed to get processing reel locally and affordable.
When you load 70mm Hasselblad magazine you lose about a foot + of film as loading leader. To do my usual film test it was waistfull so I turn to roll it to 120 until I figure out developing times. I'm using just BW films. Then I got some unperforated Rollei 25 so I made more 120 for my other camera.
It's quite affordable way of making your own 127. My son was heavily using 127 and prices for new film were outrageous, so I turned to 70mm and slitting. Not bad at all. Then he left 127 format and I was left with all that stock to terminate it for good. Endless fun!
If you have time and patience go thru thread at RFF. It's very informative and very looooong.

Question,

Can I get a 70mm back for a 4x5 cameras? I'd like to get into large format and getting a 70mm back for a 4x5 would help me in the film department getting started.

gorbas · Nov 28, 2019

I would not trust one bit of Maco speed claims. I found their 35mm Eagle AQS 400iso film to be right around 64ei for me.
Yes, I had one 4x5 - 70mm back (I think it was 6x7cm size?), and transferred it to Nokton48, since I did not have any use for it, but it was good source of 2-70mm film cassettes.
Talk with Dan, he is an expert for 70mm film and systems

Cholentpot · Nov 28, 2019

gorbas said:
I would not trust one bit of Maco speed claims. I found their 35mm Eagle AQS 400iso film to be right around 64ei for me.
Yes, I had one 4x5 - 70mm back (I think it was 6x7cm size?), and transferred it to Nokton48, since I did not have any use for it, but it was good source of 2-70mm film cassettes.
Talk with Dan, he is an expert for 70mm film and systems

Who is this Dan and how may I find him?

gorbas · Nov 28, 2019

Nokton48 here or @ RFF

Cholentpot · Nov 28, 2019

gorbas said:
Nokton48 here or @ RFF

Thanks!

gorbas · Dec 8, 2019

Have you seen this? https://www.photrio.com/forum/threads/for-those-interested-in-bulk-loading-120-220.171660/
Yes, I'm aware of your 70mm film stock but, still, maybe they have some jigs for joining 220 rolls of film and paper

Cholentpot · Dec 8, 2019

gorbas said:
Have you seen this? https://www.photrio.com/forum/threads/for-those-interested-in-bulk-loading-120-220.171660/
Yes, I'm aware of your 70mm film stock but, still, maybe they have some jigs for joining 220 rolls of film and paper

Very interesting thanks!

Your method for rolling really worked wonders. I rolled 4 rolls in the time it took me to do one.

gorbas · Dec 8, 2019

Cholentpot said:
Your method for rolling really worked wonders.

Great! You owe me an espresso when we meet one day!

Cholentpot · Dec 8, 2019

gorbas said:
Great! You owe me an espresso when we meet one day!

You're on!

Just found a Yashica 24 on the 'bay for $129 shipped. It takes 220...tempting. It's either that or a New-Vue 4x5...

Decisions...

gorbas · Dec 8, 2019

I should find nice TLR 127!?

Cholentpot · Dec 8, 2019

gorbas said:
I should find nice TLR 127!?

Dunno, manual says it takes 220. In a TLR.

I have a few 127 cameras. Brownies I think. Shutters are dead though.

gorbas · Dec 9, 2019

I still thinking that making 220 is too demanding for home condition. Sorry, no idea about Yashica TLR's and their 220 capability?

MattKing · Dec 9, 2019

The Yashica 24 was designed to use 220 film only. Later versions included instructions on the work-around necessary to use 120 film.
The work-around is, of course, related to the challenge of dealing with the exposure counter, which expects the film to have room for twelve more exposures.

Cholentpot · Dec 9, 2019

MattKing said:
The Yashica 24 was designed to use 220 film only. Later versions included instructions on the work-around necessary to use 120 film.
The work-around is, of course, related to the challenge of dealing with the exposure counter, which expects the film to have room for twelve more exposures.

Just keep cranking until the paper is wound up? Seems that the starting mark is more of the issue in my mind. Where do you start a 120 roll if there's no mark? I guess I can run a dummy roll for testing...

MattKing · Dec 9, 2019

Cholentpot said:
Just keep cranking until the paper is wound up? Seems that the starting mark is more of the issue in my mind. Where do you start a 120 roll if there's no mark? I guess I can run a dummy roll for testing...

Go to Mike Butkus' manual site and look for the manual for the 24.
There is a link there for the instructions on how to deal with 120 film.
You do, of course, have to crank and release the shutter until you reach the end - one frame at a time.
And the camera has a start mark for 220 - you just need to figure the necessary offset for 120.

120 220 bulk loading question

Cholentpot

gorbas

Cholentpot

gorbas

Cholentpot

gorbas

Cholentpot

gorbas

Cholentpot

Cholentpot

gorbas

Cholentpot

gorbas

Cholentpot

gorbas

Cholentpot

gorbas

Cholentpot

gorbas

Cholentpot

gorbas

MattKing

Moderator

Cholentpot

MattKing

Moderator

120 220 bulk loading question

Moderator

Moderator

Privacy & Transparency

Privacy & Transparency