11x14 - Which Companies Make This Size Paper?

[MattKing]

Sorry, not true. A4 fits in Canadian file folders and cabinets. Legal doesn't. Unfortunately, Canadians prefer to hang on to old fashioned and unpractical standards than to change to modern world standards like ISO 216 and SI units.

Sadly, more true than you think spijker.

Part of the problem is that even the file sizes aren't standardized - I have file folders that are two millimetres too short for A4, and file cabinets that just barely hold those small file folders.

It's the binders that drive me crazy though.

I also have a small A4 file cabinet - and cannot easily get hangers for it :confused:

Matt

 

[cmacd123]

Sadly, more true than you think spijker.
Part of the problem is that even the file sizes aren't standardized - I have file folders that are two millimetres too short for A4, and file cabinets that just barely hold those small file folders.

A lot of the supplies sold in Canada are designed for the entire North American market, and so suit US tastes. When the big push came for metrification, the metric commission was a bit too pushy and got a push back. I still remember the oposition party setting up at a gas station just outside Ottawa, as "freedom to measure" and selling Gas by the (Imperial) gallon.

The end result is a lot of industries have only gotten to "soft conversion" even after all these years, just look in the food store and see how many things are sold in 454g packages.

Unfortunately with NAFTA, most products have to be compatible with expectations south of the St Lawrence river, and so we are likely to be in that state until Obama takes up the cause of standardization in his second term.

 

[cmacd123]

I still buy RC glossy locally in 9.5x12 for proofing.

I am hoping to try that one day. Ilfordstore Canada had some on their site so I ordered a package, they in turn order from the Canadian Distributor, who has been on backorder, I am supposed to get it in August. I don't blame Ilfordstore in the least, they provided excellent service for their part of the deal and the items the Canadian distributor had in stock we here in 3 days.

In the meantime, I started cutting down some 11X14 to 11X 9.5 and found it was big enough for a proof sheet, and I hope that I can find a use for the sheets of 4.5 by 5.5 I have left over. (figured they would store better and be more likely to be used than 4.5 by 11)

 

[jgjbowen]

The OP asked about the availability of 11x14 paper. While not for enlarging, Michael Smith is having his Lodima paper cut to 11x14. The details are available at www.michaelandpaula.com

 

[wogster]

A lot of the supplies sold in Canada are designed for the entire North American market, and so suit US tastes. When the big push came for metrification, the metric commission was a bit too pushy and got a push back. I still remember the oposition party setting up at a gas station just outside Ottawa, as "freedom to measure" and selling Gas by the (Imperial) gallon.

The end result is a lot of industries have only gotten to "soft conversion" even after all these years, just look in the food store and see how many things are sold in 454g packages.

Unfortunately with NAFTA, most products have to be compatible with expectations south of the St Lawrence river, and so we are likely to be in that state until Obama takes up the cause of standardization in his second term.

What they should have done was invent a couple of intermediary measurements, like the metric pound which is ½kg, considering that it's a mere 46g more then an imperial pound, it would make sense. The UK would have had fewer problems with a metric pint (½L) and a metric gallon (4L). Some like the mile really are not metric equivalent, although having seen signs in the US of something being ⅞ of a mile away makes me wonder if anybody really knows how far that is, considering that odometers are in 10ths.

I don't think the US will ever change, the American measure is too ingrained into their society, it's one of the trinity of American beliefs along with the flag and dollar. I think you would have an easier time abolishing the president, senate and congress and replacing them with a despot.

 

[DLawson]

I don't think the US will ever change, the American measure is too ingrained into their society, it's one of the trinity of American beliefs along with the flag and dollar. I think you would have an easier time abolishing the president, senate and congress and replacing them with a despot.

We're changing, just very slowly (considering that metric has been legal for trade for 50ish years).

When I was a kid in the '60s, nothing I can think of was sized in metric units (may have been double labeled). But what's the last time you saw a 1/2 gallon soda bottle on sale? Wine and liquor (at least the ones I buy) are all in metric. Globalization is making metric parts (screws, etc) pretty common.

In 20-30 years, we may even be ready to buy gas by the liter.

 

[MattKing]

In 20-30 years, we may even be ready to buy gas by the liter.

If you buy gas in Point Roberts, Washington you will buy it by the liter.

It might have something to do with the fact that the vast majority of gas sales there are to Canadians and that, like Alaska, it is impossible to get to Point Roberts by land except through Canada.

Matt

 

[wogster]

We're changing, just very slowly (considering that metric has been legal for trade for 50ish years).

When I was a kid in the '60s, nothing I can think of was sized in metric units (may have been double labeled). But what's the last time you saw a 1/2 gallon soda bottle on sale? Wine and liquor (at least the ones I buy) are all in metric. Globalization is making metric parts (screws, etc) pretty common.

In 20-30 years, we may even be ready to buy gas by the liter.

Lets see a 1/2 Gallon Soda bottle, mid 70's maybe. The transition often goes from the older measure, to both, to new and sometimes there is a resize along the way. For example in Canada you can buy bags of milk, 3 bags is actually 4L, slightly larger then the old 3 imperial quarts they were, when they first came out.

Some of the conversions stuck nicely, for example most people, unless they intentionally refused to learn it, became conversant in Celsius temperatures. Gas here has sold by the Litre for decades, and there are very few highway signs, that still have miles on them, usually on some back road somewhere, that was forgotten. Others didn't, like selling goods by the kilogram, because it seemed like the prices doubled over night. Which is why they should have invented the "metric pound" which would have been 500g or ½kg, would have made the transition easier, and would have meant a lot less resistance.

 

[cmacd123]

metric commission mistakes made

What they should have done was invent a couple of intermediary measurements, like the metric pound which is ½kg, considering that it's a mere 46g more then an imperial pound, it would make sense.

In Canada I recall that sort of thing being proposed, but it was shot down as one of the objectives they were trying to achieve was to prevent the conversion to be an excuse for companies to jack up prices by switching to a Smaller metric pack. Thus they wanted the conversion sizes to be a Clean Break, while still being useful for consumers.

Where they got into trouble was they also had the goal of reducing the number of different sizes sold so that consumers could make price comparisons without needing a calculator. They pushed standard sizes like 50, 100, 250 ml for toothpaste which got the manufacturers upset as they were quite happy to sell "medium" tubes that got slightly smaller every time the price went up, and bigger when the New-improved version at a higher price came out.

The industry push back came with some reason, they had standard package VOLUMES for detergent for example ( because consumers use it by volume) as well as standard weights as it had been traditionally sold by weight. In pushing back ideals like that a lot of the other changes proposed also fell off the table.

Perhaps the stangest conversion that others had mentioned was milk, which used to be in 3 packs of one quart, and is now sold in three packs of slightly larger bags (which still fit the bag holder) totaling 4 Litres, so each bag is 4/3 of a litre.

 

[cmacd123]

If you buy gas in Point Roberts, Washington you will buy it by the liter.
Matt

It has been many many years since I was in the states, but I recall last time I was there some brands sold by the litre, while others sold by the US gallon. At the time the price had recently stabilized at more than a dollar a gallon, and I saw some staions maked "half price" - I was gravely disappointed to learn that they ment that the pump was set to half the price of the gas, and so if you pumped 15 dollars worth by the pump they wanted you to pay 30. I have often wondered if those pumps were replaced by ones calibrated in Litres.

 

[wogster]

In Canada I recall that sort of thing being proposed, but it was shot down as one of the objectives they were trying to achieve was to prevent the conversion to be an excuse for companies to jack up prices by switching to a Smaller metric pack. Thus they wanted the conversion sizes to be a Clean Break, while still being useful for consumers.

Where they got into trouble was they also had the goal of reducing the number of different sizes sold so that consumers could make price comparisons without needing a calculator. They pushed standard sizes like 50, 100, 250 ml for toothpaste which got the manufacturers upset as they were quite happy to sell "medium" tubes that got slightly smaller every time the price went up, and bigger when the New-improved version at a higher price came out.

The industry push back came with some reason, they had standard package VOLUMES for detergent for example ( because consumers use it by volume) as well as standard weights as it had been traditionally sold by weight. In pushing back ideals like that a lot of the other changes proposed also fell off the table.

Perhaps the stangest conversion that others had mentioned was milk, which used to be in 3 packs of one quart, and is now sold in three packs of slightly larger bags (which still fit the bag holder) totaling 4 Litres, so each bag is 4/3 of a litre.

I recall the biggest protest being that for some things like meat, the price more then doubled (so did the amount, but people seemed to ignore that fact) and that got a lot of people into a lather. Gasoline which appeared to go down in price, didn't bother people as much. Eventually they need to restart the conversion process, because right now it's half done and seems to have stalled completely. I find it interesting that 2 people who are roughly the same age, and grew up in the same environment, one will be really interested in getting it going again, and the other is so vehemently opposed that they still convert the temperature to Fahrenheit, and the speed limits to miles, even though both scales have now been metric for decades.

As for gasoline, we went through the same process, about 2-3 years before gasoline was converted to metric units, the price of gas reached $1.00 per Imperial gallon, but most pumps at the time were made to go to 99.99 cents, so we had the half gallon prices on the pumps too, for a while. When metric came in, those pumps needed to be either replaced or calibrated for metric units, which solved the problem because the price in Litres was something like 22 cents. The pumps would have soon needed replacement anyway since the half gallon pricing was only a stop gap solution. Pumps manufactured since are usually made so that they will work in either unit.

 

[jgjbowen]

How does a question about the availability of 11x14 paper get turned into a discussion about the metric system and purchasing gasoline???????????????????????????????

 

[clayne]

How does a question about the availability of 11x14 paper get turned into a discussion about the metric system and purchasing gasoline???????????????????????????????

Put your thinking cap on. 11x14 commonly turns into a 12x16 discussion and from there we go to US vs Europe sizes, etc.

In regards to the toothpaste example previously given - don't they already have to state the volume right on the container? I realize it's not the same as pre-expected volumes, but surely the calculation is easy (vol/price).

I know this is a somewhat naive question, but what are milk bags? Do they distribute the milk in bags rather than cartons? That's seems like a good idea and we should consider that in America as well. Packaging is a huge amount of waste. One thing I question is plastic vs recycled paper, however (bag vs carton). Although the larger sizes still use plastic.

 

[wogster]

Put your thinking cap on. 11x14 commonly turns into a 12x16 discussion and from there we go to US vs Europe sizes, etc.

In regards to the toothpaste example previously given - don't they already have to state the volume right on the container? I realize it's not the same as pre-expected volumes, but surely the calculation is easy (vol/price).

I know this is a somewhat naive question, but what are milk bags? Do they distribute the milk in bags rather than cartons? That's seems like a good idea and we should consider that in America as well. Packaging is a huge amount of waste. One thing I question is plastic vs recycled paper, however (bag vs carton). Although the larger sizes still use plastic.

Metric may have a lot to do with it, 11x14 would be an odd size for Europe, 27.94cm x 35.56mm, where as 12x16 is reasonably close to 30x40cm, close enough that in metric countries it could be 30x40cm, and the size ended up as 12x16 in countries that used imperial measure, but largely supplied by Europe.

The odd thing is 4x5, 5x7, 8x10, 11x14 and 16x20, are an odd collection of sizes, as the width to height ratios are not even, 5x7 and 11x14 have a different width to height ratio to the others, but are also different from each other. Does anyone know for sure, how these sizes were selected?

 

[aluk]

I know this is a somewhat naive question, but what are milk bags? Do they distribute the milk in bags rather than cartons? That's seems like a good idea and we should consider that in America as well. Packaging is a huge amount of waste. One thing I question is plastic vs recycled paper, however (bag vs carton). Although the larger sizes still use plastic.

I am always a bit surprised that milk in bags is not widespread elsewhere in the world. Here in Canada you can buy milk in 1 and 2 litre cartons, but it is also commonly sold as 3 plastic bags of 1.3 litres each. The bags are recyclable, I believe.

 

[wogster]

Put your thinking cap on. 11x14 commonly turns into a 12x16 discussion and from there we go to US vs Europe sizes, etc.

In regards to the toothpaste example previously given - don't they already have to state the volume right on the container? I realize it's not the same as pre-expected volumes, but surely the calculation is easy (vol/price).

I know this is a somewhat naive question, but what are milk bags? Do they distribute the milk in bags rather than cartons? That's seems like a good idea and we should consider that in America as well. Packaging is a huge amount of waste. One thing I question is plastic vs recycled paper, however (bag vs carton). Although the larger sizes still use plastic.

Milk bags are thin plastic bags, that contain milk, typically 4L comes in a plastic bag containing 3 bags, there is a plastic pitcher that is made so that a bag fits inside. This replaced the old glass jug that was heavy and needed to be transported back to the dairy for washing and sterilizing. The biggest problem being that they were heavy and fragile, not a good combination. The bags are not perfect either, when first opened they sometimes need a hand to keep them from flopping over.

I sometimes wonder if a good way to package liquid developers, would be similar, except with a stiff cardboard outer box, to protect the bag from puncture. Add a plastic seal where you screw in an optional small tap. Open the tap to remove the contents, the plastic bag then shrinks so that no air gets inside. The cardboard and plastic are made recyclable.

 

[clayne]

I sometimes wonder if a good way to package liquid developers, would be similar, except with a stiff cardboard outer box, to protect the bag from puncture. Add a plastic seal where you screw in an optional small tap. Open the tap to remove the contents, the plastic bag then shrinks so that no air gets inside. The cardboard and plastic are made recyclable.

I believe that's what a standard US milk carton is today. Recycled pulp with wax or similar coating in the inside.

 

[rjr]

Paul,

I sometimes wonder if a good way to package liquid developers, would be similar, except with a stiff cardboard outer box, to protect the bag from puncture. Add a plastic seal where you screw in an optional small tap. Open the tap to remove the contents, the plastic bag then shrinks so that no air gets inside. The cardboard and plastic are made recyclable.

The dutch maker Amaloco sold some paper developers and fixers in a system called "cubitainer", basically what many of you know as "bag-in-a-box" from the wine shop; a mylar bag in a carton box, the content is poured out, the bag shrinks and protects the liquid.

It wasn´t just Amaloco, another vanished brand "PAL" sold their chemistry from these cubitainers - in the early 1990s they placed them at their dealers, allowing the customer to bring their own bottles and get only what their need.

AFAIK Peter Loeffler refrained from continuing the cubitainer when he restarted Amaloco earlier this year. But you could get your own empty b-i-b -they are sold everywhere-, fill it with your favourite brand of developer and drain it over the next months.

 

[cmacd123]

The dutch maker Amaloco sold some paper developers and fixers in a system called "cubitainer", basically what many of you know as "bag-in-a-box" from the wine shop; a mylar bag in a carton box, the content is poured out, the bag shrinks and protects the liquid.

Cubitaner packaging is common for Large quantities of developer see for example http://www.freestylephoto.biz/6237-Clayton-F76-Plus-Film-Developer-5-Gallon?cat_id=301 (or http://tinyurl.com/n6g8l3 if that split)

most of us don't buy our developer 19 liters at a time.

(off topic: The trick with the milk bags is to hit the pitcher with your fist on the bottom before you cut the corner off the bag. The bag will generally slide down a couple of centimetres which makes it less floppy)

 

[Bob-D659]

Cubetainers were common packaging for chemicals made by Kodak way back in the 60's.

 

[MattKing]

The 3 bags for 4 liters of milk were introduced here in British Columbia several years ago with a bang. They never became very popular. You can still get them, but way more milk gets sold in 4 liter recyclable jugs.

Anyone have a source for a 3.75 liter cubitainer (for 3/4 of a batch of Xtol - I'd like to try replenishing a 1 1/4 liter container).

Matt

 

[Removed Account]

It's funny, back in Toronto pretty much everyone I knew bought their milk in the bags. Here in Nanaimo I don't think I've ever seen them! Only the 1L and 2L cartons, with 4L plastic jugs.

Regarding an earlier post, since when does Canada not use SI units? That's all I ever learned in school! The only reason I know how big an inch is is due to photography and helping my Dad with home projects as a kid. Strangely though, I know my weight in pounds and height in feet but not in kilograms or metres.

 

[rjr]

most of us don't buy our developer 19 liters at a time.

That´s why Amaloco came over with 5l Cubitainers.