11x14 - Which Companies Make This Size Paper?

ozphoto · Jul 29, 2009

After seeing another thread regarding the largest size print you make in your darkroom, I noticed quite a number of APUGers who print up to 11x14.

This size doesn't seem to be ultra popular here in Australia - I see some packs now and then at my local stores; the more common size seems to be 12x16.

I have some Fotospeed and am using my final sheets of Agfa paper, but I'd like to know who else produces this size and which brands you prefer.

I realise it's all personal preference, but I'm interested in everyone's opinion to give me some feedback on each brand and why you personally like Brand X over Brand Y and/or Z.

Ian Grant · Jul 29, 2009

Have a read of the other threads - there are two. 11x14 is a US size, 12x16 is the UK/European size, Australia would usually import 12x16. 11x14 is rare in the UK/Europe. So all companies probably cut 1x14 specifically for the US market.

12x16 is a far more practical size, particularly as cut in half 8x12 is perfect for 35mm negs.

Ian

Tony Egan · Jul 29, 2009

I print 11 x 14 a lot and in my experience that size has never or rarely been available in Australia in the last 25 years. 9 1/2 x 12 and 12 x16 being the most common. I have imported all my 11 x 14 and have about 4 boxes of Agfa MCC 50s left in my stockpile and a few boxes of Ilford warmtone. The freight cost can be off-putting but once you work out the cost per sheet it's not a lot different to buying locally and can even be cheaper. It also pays to experiment with different quantities and where the clip levels are with freight. I usually save up and buy a reasonable amount and keep it in the fridge or freezer. Initially B&H but lately Freestyle in LA whose shipping time is amazing. Most recent order took only 3 days to arrive.

I am hoping the ADOX MCC replacement will be in good supply by the time I run out. Agfa MCC is my favourite of all the papers I have tried so if I can't get a similar replacement I will have to experiment more. Doing quite a bit of FOMA in 16x20 lately but I haven't quite mastered contrast control yet. The blacks "fall off a cliff" pretty fast in my experience and the middle is a bit bland and mushy (technical terms!!). For me, FOMA is not nearly as good as Agfa or Ilford but still working on getting the most out of it.
I think Les Porter might have 11x14 RC Kentmere available but not 11x14 in FB. I have never used Kentmere so can't give an opinion on that paper.

2F/2F · Jul 29, 2009

I wish that every paper was available as 12x16 here. It would replace both 8x10 and 11x14 for me, as I would cut it in half if I needed 8x paper. The 3:4 ratio would also allow me to make maximum use of the paper area with my 6x4.5 negs. I will try some of the papers available from Freestyle soon, though I hate switching around a lot from my standards: Emaks, Oriental, and Ilford Warmtone.

Michael W · Jul 29, 2009

I'm with Tony & generally buy 11x14 from Freestyle. Also agree with Ian that 12x16 is a very useful size. I like Emaks Varycon & Kentmere for RC & Ilford MGIV in FB. 9.5x12 is perfect for proofing but is stupidly expensive in Sydney & not stocked by Freestyle, so I trim 11x14 & have plenty of test strips. As far as print size goes I suppose everyone needs to try a few sizes & see what suits them. I do like 11x14 because it looks big compared to 8x10 but is easy to handle & store; of course I also just like the way the prints look on it.

Tony Egan · Jul 29, 2009

Good point on the proofing Goldie. I still buy RC glossy locally in 9.5x12 for proofing.

Tom Kershaw · Jul 29, 2009

Tony Egan said:
Good point on the proofing Goldie. I still buy RC glossy locally in 9.5x12 for proofing.

Proofing contact sheets or enlarged single negatives?

Tom

PeteZ8 · Jul 29, 2009

Wow, never realized that paper sizes were such geographicly varied items.

I too am driven nuts by the lack of 35mm ratio compatable papers here in the US. All of our papers here seem to be stuck on the 4:5 ratio of traditional large format cameras. Even worse; finding properly sized frames. As if 35mm does not stretch enlargements enough, the need to shoot loose and crop in the darkroom just makes it worse. And it is a tremendous waste of money cutting up all that paper!

Indeed 12x16 would be a very usefull size.

2F/2F · Jul 29, 2009

PeteZ8 said:
Wow, never realized that paper sizes were such geographicly varied items.

I too am driven nuts by the lack of 35mm ratio compatable papers here in the US. All of our papers here seem to be stuck on the 4:5 ratio of traditional large format cameras. Even worse; finding properly sized frames. As if 35mm does not stretch enlargements enough, the need to shoot loose and crop in the darkroom just makes it worse. And it is a tremendous waste of money cutting up all that paper!

Indeed 12x16 would be a very usefull size.

You don't "need" to shoot loose and crop. Just cut your own mats. It's cheap and easy. IMO, a 2:3 (or 3:4) pic looks just as good, if not better, in a 4:5 frame than a 4:5 pic does.

Michael W · Jul 29, 2009

Tony Egan said:
Good point on the proofing Goldie. I still buy RC glossy locally in 9.5x12 for proofing.

What do you pay, about $90 for 50 sheets of Ilford? Compare it to what you can get in 11x14 RC from Freestyle & I reckon you'll find it a better deal, assuming you're ordering a few other items as well to even out the postage.

MattKing · Jul 29, 2009

I think the paper manufacturers would be wise to consider going with the (digital) flow and start making 8½ x 11 much more common in North America.

Matt

jeroldharter · Jul 29, 2009

Ian Grant said:
12x16 is a far more practical size...

Ian

What size mats do you use for this when framing?

Assuming an 11x15 image size and open borders of ~3/8 all around, that is starting to get tight on a 16x20 mat board. If you go up to 20x24 matboard, you greatly increase the cost of framing. For that reason, I like 11x14 paper (with a 10x13 image) on 16x20 matboard which is much more economical for framing.

jeroldharter · Jul 29, 2009

PeteZ8 said:
...
I too am driven nuts by the lack of 35mm ratio compatable papers here in the US. All of our papers here seem to be stuck on the 4:5 ratio of traditional large format cameras. Even worse; finding properly sized frames. As if 35mm does not stretch enlargements enough, the need to shoot loose and crop in the darkroom just makes it worse. And it is a tremendous waste of money cutting up all that paper!

Indeed 12x16 would be a very usefull size.

The paper need not match the proportions of the negative. Just use borders which help protect the integrity of the image anyway, i.e. no problems with emulsion chipping or handling issues.

Also, I think 12x16 is pretty big for 35 mm film. Isn't that at least a 10x enlargement? That is extreme for a standard print size. Even 11x14 is pushing a limit for quality 35mm prints.

wogster · Jul 29, 2009

MattKing said:
I think the paper manufacturers would be wise to consider going with the (digital) flow and start making 8½ x 11 much more common in North America.

Matt

Why? If your going to change paper sizes, then consider sizes that closer match the image sizes, and actually make sense. 8½ x 11 is no more helpful for 35mm then 8x10 is, consider that most
image sizes and print sizes don't match properly. Digital uses 8½ x 11 because ink printers designed for printing text use plain paper that comes in that size. The problem with 8½ x 11 is that frames not intended for text documents don't come in that size. It also doesn't scale.

I think the real issue is that 35mm images should have been 24mm x 30mm, having the same size ratio as a 4x5 large format camera. They would then fit a 4x5, 8x10, 16x20 print perfectly.

MattKing · Jul 29, 2009

Paul:

More and more, I see the inexpensive photo frames coming in 8½x11 rather than 8x10. As an example, every photo frame at IKEA is sized for 8½x11.

In addition, so much of the paper storage and filing resources in North America are oriented toward 8½x11 rather than smaller sizes.

8½x11 is great for Contact Sheets, and as it is at least slightly more rectangular than 8x10, it is closer to being appropriate for 35mm.

Matt

Mick Fagan · Jul 29, 2009

About the best size for 35mm enlargements is A4 which is what all office printers are designed for.

Basically it is the world standard for sheet paper, except it appears, for the north American countries. A4 is 210mm by 297mm.

I have had quite a few boxes of Ilford A4 paper over the years, but found I could get better pricing on 8x10" and 12x16" in this country.

A4 by the way, enlarges 35mm film full frame at a tad over an 8x enlargement, with just a small bit of cropping on the long side of the film.

Nanette, I have seen some interesting papers at the Melbourne store of Vanbar being sold in 11x14" sizes, usually though in 25 sheet cardboard envelopes.

Mick.

MattKing · Jul 29, 2009

Mick:

Unfortunately, A4 is too long to be usable in North American offices - it doesn't fit in our binders, it doesn't fit in our file folders and it doesn't fit in many of our file cabinets.

Otherwise, I would agree with you totally

Matt

ozphoto · Jul 29, 2009

Hi Mick.
Thanks for the Vanbar tip - I'll check their website out!

eddie · Jul 29, 2009

I prefer printing on 12x16, over 11x14. For a few years, I was having 12x16 Ilford MG IV matte fiber custom cut by a supplier in NY. They ordered full rolls, from Ilford, and cut the rolls down for schools. I was getting 12x16's for about 53 cents a sheet. 16x20's were 89 a sheet, and 20x24's were about 1.33 a sheet. They used a formula (HxWx#sheets/144 x whatever their rate was), so I actually ordered some square paper, at a lower price, for my Rolleiflex work. After awhile the price went up a bit- to .80, 1.33, and 1.99 for the respective sizes. Still, way under half the price from anywhere else.
A few years ago, they called me to say they probably wouldn't be doing it anymore, due to lesser school demand. I ended up buying almost all they had left. A few hundred sheets each in 12x16, 16x20, and 20x24. I wish they were still doing it...

You can get 12x16 paper (MG IV matte, at least) from the Ilford Store. They sell 5 50 sheet boxes for about $455.00. I've dealt with them, and the service was good.

clayne · Jul 29, 2009

As others have alluded to, and much like the imperial system of measurements, 11x14 is somewhat of a dumb size. 12x16 is far more usable and it's annoying that it hasn't taken over here.

Also, I think 12x16 is pretty big for 35 mm film. Isn't that at least a 10x enlargement? That is extreme for a standard print size. Even 11x14 is pushing a limit for quality 35mm prints.

Viewing distance, viewing distance, viewing distance.

Curt · Jul 29, 2009

12x16 is a far more practical size, particularly as cut in half 8x12 is perfect for 35mm negs.

I agree with it's use for 64.5 as someone already stated.

Jerold what size will you be enlarging your 8x10 negatives to from the Wehman camera?

Now 5x7 and 11x14 gives 10x14 which is fine for me.

jeroldharter · Jul 29, 2009

Curt said:
Jerold what size will you be enlarging your 8x10 negatives to from the Wehman camera?

My standard paper with my 4x5 camera is 11x14 with border to suit the image.

I think my standard for 8x10 will be 8x10 contact prints or 16x20 enlargements with borders. The 8x10 stuff is a work in progress.

spijker · Jul 29, 2009

MattKing said:
Unfortunately, A4 is too long to be usable in North American offices - it doesn't fit in our binders, it doesn't fit in our file folders and it doesn't fit in many of our file cabinets.

Sorry, not true. A4 fits in Canadian file folders and cabinets. Legal doesn't. Unfortunately, Canadians prefer to hang on to old fashioned and unpractical standards than to change to modern world standards like ISO 216 and SI units.

But let's stick to photography here and while A4 and A3 fitt well with 2:3 (35mm) negatives, I can see that it doesn't with a 3:4 or 4:5 negative. In that sense paper manufacturers can't satify everybody. Still, as a 35mm shooter I would like to see A4 and/or 12x16in photo paper here.

Tony Egan · Jul 30, 2009

Tom Kershaw said:
Proofing contact sheets or enlarged single negatives?

Tom

Everything up to 8x10. But I was mainly thinking of contact sheets for 35mm and 120 negs. Approx. same size as the negative protectors and fit neatly in A4 binders.

Ian Grant · Jul 30, 2009

jeroldharter said:
What size mats do you use for this when framing?

Assuming an 11x15 image size and open borders of ~3/8 all around, that is starting to get tight on a 16x20 mat board. If you go up to 20x24 matboard, you greatly increase the cost of framing. For that reason, I like 11x14 paper (with a 10x13 image) on 16x20 matboard which is much more economical for framing.

I'm matting & framing 20x16, my actual print area is around 12" x9½" but that can vary as I shoot different formats.

Ian

11x14 - Which Companies Make This Size Paper?

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2F/2F

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PeteZ8

2F/2F

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MattKing

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11x14 - Which Companies Make This Size Paper?

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