11.000 dpi DRUM SCAN from 35mm KODAK EKTAR _ Leica Apo-Telyt-R 180 f3.4 _LEICA R8

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federico9001

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Film: Kodak Ektar 100
Format: 35mm
Camera: LEICA R8
Lens: Leica Apo-Telyt-R 180 f3.4
Aperture: f 9.5
Scanner: Dainippon Screen 8060 Mark II
Original resolution: 11.000 dpi (resized to 9500 dpi)
 

Surf

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Film: Kodak Ektar 100
Format: 35mm
Camera: LEICA R8
Lens: Leica Apo-Telyt-R 180 f3.4
Aperture: f 9.5
Scanner: Dainippon Screen 8060 Mark II
Original resolution: 11.000 dpi (resized to 9500 dpi)

OK. We have crops now and can compare things. See the attached picture. On the left is the high-end flatbed scan. I had to upsample from 6000dpi to your 9500dpi. It's a fast film, 35mm, negative. Everybody can see that there are much more details there. While your scan (on the right) is good it do not resolve even 6000dpi.

BTW it's a nice way to compare scan resolutions: you apply autolevels to iniform part of the image and immediately see how sharp is your scanner.

Regards
Al

PS. No sharp applied on my scan (on the left).
 

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federico9001

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I've fun with your efforts to demonstrate that some people around, users of several scanners (Dainippon 8060 drum scanner, Dainippon 1045, CREO IQSMART3, Imacon 848, SCREEN CEZANNE), still didn't understand that a "high-end flatbed scan" is better than a 8060 drum scan. Probably they have a masochistic attitude to keep working a 500kg drum scanner to get a worse image quality.
I think that your technical considerations are on a completely wrong road...

1. I told you yet before that to compare different scanners you should scan the same negatives and you should know the settings adopted for each scan.

2. You avoided to specify extremely important things about your scan: type of film, model of scanner, type of mounting, settings applied in this scan (camera, lens, etc apart).

3. "it's a nice way to compare scan resolutions: you apply autolevels to iniform part of the image and immediately see how sharp is your scanner": that's an amateur unacceptable and weird simplification, and you can't use your method of showing the rendition of the grain to determine the resolution of a scanning system:

3.1 - DRY mounting produces always crisper but worse and unpleasant grain

3.2 - CCD scanners allow just to set the resolution, A/D parameters of conversion etc...They don't allow to set the apertures to change the relationship between sampling frequency (spi) and optical resolution (setted by the use of several different apertures, up to 25 in some scanners)

3.3 - The main goal of a high-end scan is to achieve the best compromise between detail and noise reduction: that's what has been done in the scan posted at the beginning of this POST. The 8060 drum scanenr has several different apertures. The smallest aperture allows of course the highest detail (about 11.000 true optical dpi) but a more unpleasant grain, similar to your noisy scan but much more detailed. Here Instead, to get the best results a medium aperture has been adopted: it allowed to extract all the details recorded by the lens and to reduce noise and grain at the minimum level.

Theese are the principles of a true high-end scan that you can print up to the largest sizes mantaining all the original details recorded by the lens on the film.

btw: also, state-of-the-art PMT (drum) scanners are able to extract a much wider color gamut and wider dynamic range from both slides, bw and color negatives than CCD scanners: that's the reason of a huge visible difference of quality in the actual final output (prints, etc).

Concluding, that's why CastorScan adopts just their 8060 pmt-drum scanner for their high-end scans instead of their CREO IQSMART3, Imacon 848 or Screen Cezanne CCD scanners (or others...).
 
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Surf

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The 8060 drum scanenr has several different apertures. The smallest aperture allows of course the highest detail (about 11.000 true optical dpi) but a more unpleasant grain
11.000 dpi DRUM SCAN from 35mm KODAK EKTAR _ Leica Apo-Telyt-R 180 f3.4 _LEICA R8

So they proudly used large aperture that do not resolve details to reduce grain, proudly said that the scan was 11 000 dpi, reduced to 9 500 dpi. The camera was Leica. There is no sense in that example. If you want to promote those guys try to present a better example of what the drum scanner can do.
 

georgl

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@Bernard61

Thank you for these samples!

I use a Linotype-Hell Tango which also offers up to 11000ppi optical resolution but in the final results, you reach a level of "diminishing return" at about 6000ppi, IMHO. I still try to generate true "reference slides" which offer colors, dynamic range AND sharpness.
I generally use the smallest aperture (10µm - which size is the Dainippon?) and do the processing in LR3 or LR4 - the downsampling, color adjustment and especially noise reduction/sharpening algorithms seem more advanced than PS, also suitable for scans!?
 

Surf

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I use a Linotype-Hell Tango which also offers up to 11000ppi optical resolution but in the final results, you reach a level of "diminishing return" at about 6000ppi, IMHO. ...
I generally use the smallest aperture (10µm - which size is the Dainippon?)...
Hi georgl! 10um its a lot... My flatbed (modified) has 5um on film for one pixell on a CCD. Also it has diffusor that reduces grain and scratches. (The thing that drum scanners do not have - they have to play with aperture to reduce grain. And always need to wet mount to escape from Newton rings)

Personally I like drum scanners. I scanned with Dainippon Screen 757 many years ago even. And also played with older models. I like them. But I'm yet to see on the above sample what they can do.

That's what ICG 370HS can do (found them on the net):
35mm - Hochaufl�sungsscans - Beispiele - High Resolutions Drum Scans - Samples

Nice samples. Everyone can see that the scans are great.

Regards
Al
Bernard61 said:
Surf, You should study better....
Thanks Bernard61. I know.
 
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federico9001

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The Linotype-Hell (Heidelberg) Tango is known to have a true optical resolution of 5500 spi ca, much lower than its declared sempling frequency (11.000 dpi). In the past the Tango has been a VERY overrated scanner (probably they choosed a name that sounds good commercially...).

The ICG 370 HS, Aztek Premier and Dainippon 8060 are the only 3 scanners in the world that I would consider at the top for image quality; however, the 8060's advantage is the special Xenon lamp that allows a cleaner (less noise and grain) output. The smallest aperture is 2 micron.
 

georgl

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I've tested it against various Imacons and Howtek (D4000) scanners, the scans of the Hell have been shown to be superior and needed less work to achieve good results (drumscan.blogspot.de) - at least with slide film. The standard software is annoying in it's limitations (Linocolor is 8Bit, Newcolor has a sharpening-bug, Silverfast might be best but costs 2000€) but the quality of design and construction is way superior to all the other scanners I've ever put my hands on. The collaborative large format scanner comparison also shows interesting results, the Tango-scans are really good from various operators - although resolution isn't tested to it's limits here. When I finally get my hands on worthy reference-slide, I would be happy to share it for another collaborative test, sending it around the globe!

The limiting factor in practical resolution seems to be build-quality, >>6000ppi seems to be out of reach with any scanner, especially small drum scanners and consumer-models, it's more than just the sampling resolution and aperture size. A flatbed has no aperture of any kind due to the way it samples the image, it can only sample beyond CCD-size along one axis (movement of the array).
 
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federico9001

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Unfortunately "The collaborative large format scanner comparison" is a really bad work; I know many of those scanners and I don't see that the real differences are showed correctly. For me it's a totally unreliable page (made by operators with completely different skills, taste etc...).
In my opinion the scans by the Tango are acceptable just for medium-resolution slides. But anyway much better scans are achievable on high-end drum scanners like ICG 370 HS, Aztek Premier and Dainippon 8060.
Yes, the building quality is extremely important, but everything else too, if you want to get the highest quality of scan.
 
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