10x8 vs 5x4 for English landscapes

Michael Stubbs · Mar 20, 2016

Hi all.

I'm about to switch to large format and have a bit of a basic question, which is why I signed up to this forum.

I'm pretty much all set to get a 5x4 setup for shooting colour and black and white. I plan to develop my own black and white film and eventually setup a proper darkroom to print my own black and white stuff at large sizes.

Obviously 10x8 neagtives are going to hold more information than 5x4. My question is, at a maximum size of 50" on the long size, black and white, printed optically in a darkroom, will the difference be profound? I'm quite sure there'll be a difference, but will it be the difference between a grainy/fuzzy print and a sharp, detailed one?

I would mostly expect to be printing at smaller sizes than this, but I want the ability to go big should I wish.

If anyone has any experience of going that big, as opposed to the theory of going that big, I'd be very grateful for your input.

Frankly if a 5x4 will enlarge well to that size I'd rather not pay 4x the camera, film, paper and chemical costs!!

Oh just so you know my subject matter - English landscapes, pin sharp focus front to back.

Thanks.

Michael

MDR · Mar 20, 2016

4x5 can do it 8x10 can do it better. A 8x10 camera doesn't have to be much more expensive to buy than a 4x5 the drawback of 8x10 is the weight and size of the camera and accessories. Film flatness can become a problem the large you go.

Doremus Scudder · Mar 20, 2016

Size matters.

4x5 is going to be a lighter field kit. How much do you hike? How much can you carry how far comfortably?
8x10 enlargers are at least 4x bigger than a 4x5 enlarger. How much room do you have for your darkroom?
How much are you able to/willing to sacrifice to go larger

FWIW, I shoot a lightweight 4x5 camera and print to maximum 20x24. That's big enough of a print for me...

Doremus

apkujeong · Mar 20, 2016

There's a lot of factors involved:

Weather - British rain and wind make 4x5 attractive. A 10x8 camera acts like a big sail. There are several reasons so many 8x10 users are based in the US, I think weather might be one of them.
Transport - will you move this kit by car, or in a backpack? These days I move an 8x10 2D in a backpack, it's possible, but I'm not lugging it and a big tripod up mountains (not yet, it might kill me).
Print size - 50" sounds massive. And massively expensive whichever way!
Enlarger - 5x4 enlargers turn up very cheaply sometimes, but I didn't stumble upon a cheap 10x8 yet, and moving one of those would need a truck, not a car.

Good luck, and have fun. I think 4x5 is probably the better option. A 9x12 plate camera is a light and cheap alternative.

removed account4 · Mar 20, 2016

for color work, you also have to keep in mind unless youare developing it yourself &c,
there are not oodles of labs left that will develop color /chromes
and there are not as many color/chrome films available to purchase at that size ..
not to mention cost. recently, i remember reading it costs 40-50$ ( USD ) / image ( procesing included ) .. i may have misread / misunderstood.
unless you have reserves of $$ it seems rather expensive, at least for color work. black and white is a totaly different story
there are ways ( inexpensive ) to make optically enlargable 8x10 films at that size, and if you have the patience will and know how
you can make mind blowing 8x10 trichrome color images ( made from R G B color separation negatives )

ymnv
good luck!
john

Ian Grant · Mar 20, 2016

Depends how far you need to walk,I shoot both formats although mostly 5x4 because 10x8 is heavier and less portable. Like Doremus I print to about 24x20 maximum bu have printed 5x4 to 6ft x42", larger for work in the 70's & 80's.

Welcome to APUG, where in the UK ? You can come try a 10x8 if close enough.

Ian

Michael Stubbs · Mar 20, 2016

Thanks for all the replies - and so quickly, too!!

Good point about the weather, Peter. It's almost never still around here, especially during the winter.

Ian: thanks for the offer. I'm in Teesside.

By the way, with Copal now not making shutters, would you chaps recommend buying new lenses (there are still some left) or used lenses? New of course is at least 3x the price of used, but I'm thinking of the life of the shutter and the fact the lens will have never had any fungus issues...

Michael Stubbs · Mar 20, 2016

Taking into account all that's been said, perhaps it is wiser to at least start with 5x4. Then there's the matter of which field camera, which is a whole other can of worms!

Ian Grant · Mar 20, 2016

You're too far north Michael

Shutters can be given a CLA, repaired, or replaced so I would buy second hand as there's some excellent bargains to be found. I'm using 3 pre WWI shutters, 2 Compurs and a Compound and all are still accurate.

Ian

paul_c5x4 · Mar 20, 2016

Angie and David Unsworth used to do quite a bit of LF photography with 5x4 & 10x8 in the Lake District up until quite recently. Lugging a 10x8 rig up some of those hills takes a dedicated masochist - I've done 5x4 up there, so know what some of the tracks are like.

The Unsworths have now moved way up north to the Highlands and I hope they are still shooting landscapes, even if they aren't English.

Pete O · Mar 22, 2016

4x5 colour sheet film costs about £2.50 a sheet to get processed in the UK. 8x10 enlargers cost an arm & a leg. 5x7 is a really nice format and many 5x7 cameras also have a 4x5 back available. My Norma will also take a 6x9 cm roll film holder which I use for my colour stuff. You could consider 5x7 and if you go down the Sinar road 4x5, 5x7 & 8x10 backs are available.
Pete.

Bob Carnie · Mar 22, 2016

I print large murals.. therefore my answer is only directed to the darkroom side.
A 8 x10 negative will give you a much nicer quality silver gelatin print at 50 inches than a 4 x5 negative

If you are happy with 30 x40 prints then the discussion starts drifting to the usability in the field of 4 x5 vs 8x10- I have made what I think magnificent 30 x40 silver gelatin prints from 4 x5 negatives at this magnification.

virtualphil · Mar 22, 2016

Seriously difficult to give advice on this. I was faced with a similar decision 2 years ago.
As I was more concerned with contact printing there really was no option but to go LARGE.

Although I am now past the half way mark in life; I still managed to carry a metal 10x8 around the hills of Derbyshire - just a question of single mindedness and a good rucksack. It's the pigging tripod that does my head in every time.

My words of caution would be; if you have a favourite film, check if it available in the size you want. And if you want choice in colour film you may be better to stay away from a 10x8. (Too poor to shoot it myself).

Good luck

timparkin · Mar 23, 2016

paul_c5x4 said:
Angie and David Unsworth used to do quite a bit of LF photography with 5x4 & 10x8 in the Lake District up until quite recently. Lugging a 10x8 rig up some of those hills takes a dedicated masochist - I've done 5x4 up there, so know what some of the tracks are like.

The Unsworths have now moved way up north to the Highlands and I hope they are still shooting landscapes, even if they aren't English.

They're still doing some photography but David is also doing some painting as well. I've picked up my 10x8 camera again recently as well and you could say that the 10x8 is quintessentially British in it's awkwardness and overengineering (even though both me and the Unsworths used Japanese cameras)

Ian Grant · Mar 23, 2016

timparkin said:
They're still doing some photography but David is also doing some painting as well. I've picked up my 10x8 camera again recently as well and you could say that the 10x8 is quintessentially British in it's awkwardness and overengineering (even though both me and the Unsworths used Japanese cameras)

Having recently bought and restored a British 12x10 camera there's nothing awkward about it, light weight for it's size and elegant.

Because I restore wood & brass cameras quite regularly I see quite a variety and in use all easy to use, the awkwardness is often they way they fold up and unpack.

After 30 years of using field cameras (in addition to the previous 10 years of monorail for work) I realise that often there's too many features I've never used or needed to use.

My own 10x8 work is with a pair of Agfa Ansco's one a Commercial View, if I could find an old British 10x8 that took modern film holders I'd use it instead, I won't buy a Japanese or Chinese 10x8.

Ian

timparkin · Mar 23, 2016

Ian Grant said:
..
Because I restore wood & brass cameras quite regularly I see quite a variety and in use all easy to use, the awkwardness is often they way they fold up and unpack.
..

I was only implying awkwardness relative to a well set up 5x4. I don't know many 10x8's or bigger that have the utility in applying things like compound tilts with the control of something like an well built 5x4 (using dentist mirrors to set the aperture when the front standard is hanging over a cliff for instance).

I use the Toyo 810MII and it's a pleasure compared with some 10x8's I've used (albeit I've made a couple of modifications).

DREW WILEY · Mar 23, 2016

I've never shot either 5x4 or 10X8, but I have shot and printed an awful lot of both 4X5 and 8x10, as we classify the formats in this country! The most
important thing to recognize is that your chain is no better than its weakest link. For example, many people don't realize that their 8x10 film actually sags in the filmholder, or is out of focus due to a glassless negative carrier, so never learn to take full advantage of the larger film size. For example, I often make 30x40 color prints. This means that 4x5 film gets enlarged approximately 8X linearly, but 8x10 only 4x. So yes, there is a distinct qualitative difference in that scale when optically printed. The 8x10 enlargements stand out. Most people are pretty surprised how much detail can get packed into the print, especially if they're accustomed to inkjet prints. But a lot also depends on your budget, how you feel about distinctly heavier equipment, your shooting style, how you manage depth of field issues with longer focal lengths, etc. I don't know why anyone thinks they're going to get outstanding large prints when they haven't mastered view camera basics yet. There is a learning curve, regardless of the film size.

timparkin · Mar 24, 2016

Not sure if this helps...

https://www.onlandscape.co.uk/2011/12/big-camera-comparison/

DREW WILEY · Mar 24, 2016

The methodology of view cameras in general is just so different than small machines that it lends itself to a more contemplative path to composition.
That's not an absolute rule, but a frequent case. It tends to cultivate a different mindset, regardless of whether you're contact printing or enlarging. Then there are all the technical controls like movements which can at best only be partially simulated by small camera lens gadgets. All of this vastly outweighs all those endlessly idiotic pixel count versus film area diatribes. One chooses a working method and the appropriate supplies based on a level of comfort and familiarity, I suppose. If an artist never got out the door of the art store because he can't decide between two competing brushes, he won't get any actual painting done. All of that is relevant, but secondary. For me, film, view cameras, and darkroom work make perfect sense. For somebody else, maybe something else does. The point is to get past the techie talk and work spontaneously, so you can concentrate on what really
counts. Yes, buy the best gear you can afford, master it, and then forget it!

timparkin · Mar 24, 2016

DREW WILEY said:
The methodology of view cameras in general is just so different than small machines that it lends itself to a more contemplative path to composition.
That's not an absolute rule, but a frequent case. It tends to cultivate a different mindset, regardless of whether you're contact printing or enlarging. Then there are all the technical controls like movements which can at best only be partially simulated by small camera lens gadgets. All of this vastly outweighs all those endlessly idiotic pixel count versus film area diatribes. One chooses a working method and the appropriate supplies based on a level of comfort and familiarity, I suppose. If an artist never got out the door of the art store because he can't decide between two competing brushes, he won't get any actual painting done. All of that is relevant, but secondary. For me, film, view cameras, and darkroom work make perfect sense. For somebody else, maybe something else does. The point is to get past the techie talk and work spontaneously, so you can concentrate on what really
counts. Yes, buy the best gear you can afford, master it, and then forget it!

"the best gear you can afford" - 99% of the internet is dedicated to finding out what "best" means and then trying to afford it..

DREW WILEY · Mar 24, 2016

The first thing one needs to buy relative to the internet is a good manure shovel. You gotta scoop away the 99% BS to get at the 1% that is valid.
Far better, once one has a hunch, is to get real equipment in your real hands before making a decision, unless you already know what you want and
have a solid idea of what the manufacturer also represents. I make my living sellling equipment. Often the people who are the very best at marketing
represent the worst products imaginable. And the average equipment review should be taken with a grain of salt, to say the least. Back when I didn't
have a clue what view camera gear was all about, I certainly took my time and am glad I did. Every step of the way was hands-on. But those kinds of
stores are rare today. Even rarer are competent sales people. Now it's idiot.com.

Michael Stubbs · Apr 2, 2016

Thanks very much for all the replies.

So the conclusion I've come to is 10x8 is better with regards to detail, and is what I'd like to shoot. However, I think the sheer cost of the film is going to be a bit prohibitive. I might have to start with 5x4 and, should I really get into black and white photography more than colour, I will look at upgrading in the future, much as I'd prefer to just get one setup sorted now and forget about it. For colour, cost of film and scanning means it'd be 5x4.

Having said that I'm struggling to go ahead and do it because I've now got the seed of 10x8 planted in my head.

Are 10x8 cameras with reducing backs (to use 5x4 film) a good setup?

The camera situation is much the same in 5x4. The Ebony 45SU is the dream one, and back to reality, I think I've narrowed it down to the Chamonix 045n-2 or the Toyo View 45AII. The wooden Wista with interchangeable bellows was my previous favourite but I understand the Chamonix is sturdier and the Wista is limited to base tilt. As I understand it, axis tilt is easier to handle.

The practical differences between axis tilt and asymmetrical tilt, however, is something I have yet to work out...

Sirius Glass · Apr 2, 2016

Welcome to APUG

Michael Stubbs · Apr 2, 2016

Thank you!

Theo Sulphate · Apr 2, 2016

DREW WILEY said:
...many people don't realize that their 8x10 film actually sags in the filmholder...

I did not realize that. I just assumed the plastic guides would hold the film sufficiently flat. However, all I know is 4x5 -- I suppose the sag is much less.

10x8 vs 5x4 for English landscapes

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