100 and 400 traditional emulsion film (35mm)

gattu marrudu · Nov 29, 2020

Hello,
I have been away from B&W film technology development for a few years, and I just resumed my interest.

About 10 years ago I was very fond of Adox films, which back then offered up to 400 ISO film in 35mm. I also used Bergger, also available in 50÷100 ISO if I remember. EFKE was a hit-and-miss as far as quality control but their 100 film (on good batches) was great. I like the bold grain and wide latitude of traditional emulsions, not mixed with color dyes as mainstream films such as Tri-X and co.

I see that today CHS100 has been replaced with a new formula, and the 400 series disappeared. Bergger has only a new "panchro 400" for which it offers little technical information. Also I see Freestyle carries a few new "boutique" brands of specialty film that I am not too convinced about (I can definitely trust Adox's legacy of film-making, much less so new start-ups digging up old equipment and formulas—but I might be mistaken).

My questions for you are: what are your thoughts on thenew Adox and Bergger films compared to the ones from 10 years ago? And can you suggest any other good traditional emulsion films in the 100÷400 ISO range with reputable quality control standards?

Thanks a lot,
gm

cerber0s · Nov 29, 2020

gattu marrudu said:
Hello,
I have been away from B&W film technology development for a few years, and I just resumed my interest.

About 10 years ago I was very fond of Adox films, which back then offered up to 400 ISO film in 35mm. I also used Bergger, also available in 50÷100 ISO if I remember. EFKE was a hit-and-miss as far as quality control but their 100 film (on good batches) was great. I like the bold grain and wide latitude of traditional emulsions, not mixed with color dyes as mainstream films such as Tri-X and co.

I see that today CHS100 has been replaced with a new formula, and the 400 series disappeared. Bergger has only a new "panchro 400" for which it offers little technical information. Also I see Freestyle carries a few new "boutique" brands of specialty film that I am not too convinced about (I can definitely trust Adox's legacy of film-making, much less so new start-ups digging up old equipment and formulas—but I might be mistaken).

My questions for you are: what are your thoughts on thenew Adox and Bergger films compared to the ones from 10 years ago? And can you suggest any other good traditional emulsion films in the 100÷400 ISO range with reputable quality control standards?

Thanks a lot,
gm

Give Fomapan a go. It comes in ISO100, 200 and 400 and it's supposed to be pretty old tech, they've been doing it since 1921.

Kodachromeguy · Nov 29, 2020

gattu marrudu said:
And can you suggest any other good traditional emulsion films in the 100÷400 ISO range with reputable quality control standards?

Welcome back to B&W film! Most film today is amazingly good. Most (all?) companies make an excellent product. Some suggestions:

100 ISO: Fomapan 100 classic is a traditional-looking film. Fuji Acros 100 is a more modern emulsion (not sure if it is T-grain) and is fine-grain and superb.

400 ISO: Kodak Tri-X 400 is a classic, although the present emulsion is a bit different than the one from 15 or 20 years ago. I do not know about the color dyes that you mentioned above. https://www.35mmc.com/07/02/2020/kodak-tri-x-review/

R.Gould · Nov 29, 2020

If you want old tech films then get some Fomapan film's, 100, 200, and 400, probably the oldest tech films around, I have read that they are they only poured emulsion films still in production, I have been using them for 25 years, and they are the only film's I use because the results just look so old fashioned

Pentode · Nov 29, 2020

Well, GM, Foma makes very nice film but I think you'll find that their 100 (which is really nice) is actually closer to 50 and their 400 is actually closer to 250 in terms of real speed.
Modern Tri-X (also really nice) is no longer a traditional grained film, but is actually a hybrid of traditional and T-grain technology.
Ilford is still making their two age-old traditional films, FP4+ and HP5+, both just as good as they ever were.
Ilford's parent company, Harman, also makes the less expensive Kentmere 100 and 400, which I've never used but they've got a big following.
If you can deal with buying bulk rolls and loading your own cassettes, Orwo makes a really nice 100 speed film called UN54+. They were also making a 400 speed film called N74 but that's now been replaced by the newer, 320 speed N75.

In your position, I would probably go right for the Ilford FP4+ and HP5+. They're traditional, cubic grained films with excellent quality control, a long history and tons of processing data available.

relistan · Nov 29, 2020

Adox CHS 100 II is a modern film but with an old school look, made to be as close to the old Efke/Adox CHS but with modern cascade coating and German quality control. If you liked the old Adox film, you'll Probably like the new one.

Bergger's PANCRO 400 is formulated by ORWO and coated by Inoviscoat in Germany. Also a very old school and excellent film.

But I also second that Foma and Ilford films are great options.

DeletedAcct1 · Nov 29, 2020

gattu marrudu said:
Hello,
I have been away from B&W film technology development for a few years, and I just resumed my interest.

About 10 years ago I was very fond of Adox films, which back then offered up to 400 ISO film in 35mm. I also used Bergger, also available in 50÷100 ISO if I remember. EFKE was a hit-and-miss as far as quality control but their 100 film (on good batches) was great. I like the bold grain and wide latitude of traditional emulsions, not mixed with color dyes as mainstream films such as Tri-X and co.

I see that today CHS100 has been replaced with a new formula, and the 400 series disappeared. Bergger has only a new "panchro 400" for which it offers little technical information. Also I see Freestyle carries a few new "boutique" brands of specialty film that I am not too convinced about (I can definitely trust Adox's legacy of film-making, much less so new start-ups digging up old equipment and formulas—but I might be mistaken).

My questions for you are: what are your thoughts on thenew Adox and Bergger films compared to the ones from 10 years ago? And can you suggest any other good traditional emulsion films in the 100÷400 ISO range with reputable quality control standards?

Thanks a lot,
gm

eia
Ilford Fp4+ and Ilford Hp5+

MattKing · Nov 29, 2020

Pentode said:
Ilford's parent company, Harman

More accurately, "Harman, the licensee of the Ilford brand name for black and white film products".
There really isn't an Ilford company any more, since Ilford Imaging went under.
Kentmere films seem to be available with other names, because Harman does toll manufacturing for others.
There are also some films that are intended for motion picture use but can be obtained in 35mm still packaging.
But generally I would say FP4+, HP5+ or Tri-X.

Donald Qualls · Nov 29, 2020

For conventional grain, my go-to has been Foma (or rebranded Foma -- Freestyle's Arista .EDU Ultra, for instance, which is usually priced 5-10% below Foma-labeled film) since 2005. I disagree with the claims of false speed; I get good shadow detail exposing both Ultra 100 and Ultra 400 at box speed (haven't used the 200 version) -- and I've gotten that good speed with Parodinal, D-23 replenished, Caffenol, and most recently with Xtol replenished stock. It doesn't hurt anything that .EDU Ultra is usually the least expensive film in a given category -- with the only significant competition coming from Foma-branded film, and Ultrafine, the Photo Warehouse house brand (which AFAIK hasn't yet been confirmed as to source).

NB23 · Nov 29, 2020

R.Gould said:
I have read that they are they only poured emulsion films still in production

what is a poured emulsion?

cmacd123 · Nov 29, 2020

gattu marrudu said:
About 10 years ago I was very fond of Adox films, which back then offered up to 400 ISO film in 35mm.

I see that today CHS100 has been replaced with a new formula

the films that were sold as Adox back in the day were produced by a firm known as EFKE. EFKE had purchased the 1950's ADOX technology when the old ADOX company was would down and sold off. EFKE sadly went defunct when their factory started to literally wear out.. the Current New ADOX company used to sell the efke stocks and have attempted rather successfully to recreate the product using German production. The 400 speed film sold by EFKE was apparently made by another firm, and just packaged by Efke.

CHS100 was made by one supplier for the new ADOX and ADOX is bringing the production in house, as CHS-II 100. As far as older technology films, you may want to try the Foma line, and in the Czech republic.

JensH · Nov 29, 2020

Hi,

Ilford's FP4Plus and HP5Plus and Kodak's TriX are my first choice.
Since I discovered Pyro (PMK) FP4Plus became a favorite film...
I like the Adox CHS-II a lot, but use it rarely as it still is not made in 120.

Best wishes
Jens

markjwyatt · Nov 29, 2020

NB23 said:
what is a poured emulsion?

My guess would be poured onto the acetate, then spread with Meyer rods or some similar simpler technology (relative to curtain or slide die). Maybe also roll coated, but not sure why that would be called "poured" (other than pouring the emulsion into the roll coater).

twelvetone12 · Nov 30, 2020

If you liked Efke 100, you should give a try to Adox CHS II, it is the modern version of Efke 100. The two films are remarkably similar, but I find CHS a more robust version of the Efke one.

R.Gould · Nov 30, 2020

NB23 said:
what is a poured emulsion?

To be honest I am not sure, but I do remember around 20 years ago reading that Foma was the last poured emulsion left in the world today, It was on the website of the original importer's of Foma products, a firm called Retro photography, now long gone, I had already been using Fomapan film for a number of years, I woul nip across to France, which is only twelve miles away, and we would often go there for a long weekend or more, we have a house over there, and in passing though St Malo I would stock up on the film, from a old fashioned photo shop that was there, again now gone, and they would also talk about Foma film being the last poured emulsion, I never really bothered to find out what they meant, only being interested in the results thatt I got with it
Richard

twelvetone12 · Nov 30, 2020

There are sono photos on the 'net of the Foma factory, and they still use a festoon dryer. There is also a photo of a coating room, but I can't say what technology they are using.

Paul Howell · Nov 30, 2020

I liked EFKE, have not found film that is a match, I use Foma as my shoot around film, along with Ultrafine 100 and 400 for my 35mm point and shoots which need to be DX coded. When I travel or shoot for money I use Tmax 400 and 100. Old school is fine, but I would not dismiss Tmax or Delta films out of hand, at times the gain, resolution and contrast of Tmax 400 or 100 fits a shot nicely.

Pentode · Nov 30, 2020

twelvetone12 said:
If you liked Efke 100, you should give a try to Adox CHS II, it is the modern version of Efke 100. The two films are remarkably similar, but I find CHS a more robust version of the Efke one.

I originally bought Efke 100 in the 1990s because it was cheap. I ended up liking it very much and so I continued buying it because it was good.

I love the idea that CHS 100 II might be similar to Efke - or even better - but it is, sadly, the opposite of cheap.

I really appreciate ADOX’s commitment to Black & White photography and the high quality of the products they’ve brought to the market and, with that in mind, I try to buy their films when I can. I also completely understand why their films cost as much as they do so this is not a criticism by any means. Their pricing does restrict me from using CHS as an everyday film, though. I wish they offered it in 100’ rolls.

markjwyatt · Nov 30, 2020

Here is a useful paper on rod coating (often called "Mayer" rod). It is an older coating technology, but works well. The limitation that led to using slide and curtain dies may be line speed, but that is also a guess. It may just be overall accuracy, especially for multi-layer color emulsions, which can require 15-20 layers sometimes, each very thin. For B&W emulsions 2-3 layers may suffice (and potentially could be coated sequentially).

https://www.aimcal.org/uploads/4/6/6/9/46695933/krasucki.pdf

runswithsizzers · Nov 30, 2020

Pentode said:
Well, GM, Foma makes very nice film but I think you'll find that their 100 (which is really nice) is actually closer to 50 and their 400 is actually closer to 250 in terms of real speed.
[...]

This brings up an interesting question in my mind. "Which ISO 100 films give good results when metered at ISO 100?" Rather than sidetracking this thread, I have started a new thread for answers to that question, <here>.

Donald Qualls said:
[...]I disagree with the claims of false speed; I get good shadow detail exposing both Ultra 100 and Ultra 400 at box speed (haven't used the 200 version) -- and I've gotten that good speed with Parodinal, D-23 replenished, Caffenol, and most recently with Xtol replenished stock. [...]

Thanks for that.

gattu marrudu · Nov 30, 2020

Thank you for all the responses. I will definitely try Foma, and do a few test shots with Adox, Bergger, and maybe HP5 and FP4 too.

I recall as a student (~1990s) I was doing a test on coarse grain images and compared Kodak TX and Ilford HP5 at high enlargement. I liked the unevenness of the HP5 better, but that is my taste.

Yesterday I brushed the dust of My Darkroom Cookbook (3rd ed.) and it brought a couple of interesting things back to memory:

1) As stated elsewhere in this thread, TX has been semi-flattened and mixed up with dyes. That, according to Anchell, was done mostly for economic reasons at the expense of depth and character.
2) The 3rd edition of the book removes a section about film speed increase techniques (e.g. hydrogen peroxide push and acetic acid latensification) due to the fact that most films at that time were dye-based and unsuitable to those techniques (only EFKE is cited, and in the past tense). I guess that I can find those formulas online if I ever need them, but it's just interesting how Anchell sort of lost hope in photographers wanting traditional emulsion back, and the market answering...

Pentode · Nov 30, 2020

gattu marrudu said:
As stated elsewhere in this thread, TX has been semi-flattened and mixed up with dyes. That, according to Anchell, was done mostly for economic reasons at the expense of depth and character.

Like Anchell, I prefer the look of older versions of Tri-X to the current offering but I wouldn’t go as far as he does in attacking the new stuff. It’s still a great looking film; It just looks different than it used to.

gattu marrudu · Nov 30, 2020

As some brought up ORWO, I just looked at the website and saw they also make a 400 ISO film: ORWO N74plus (400 ASA) Motion Picture Film Specs

Did anyone try that?

Pentode · Nov 30, 2020

gattu marrudu said:
As some brought up ORWO, I just looked at the website and saw they also make a 400 ISO film: ORWO N74plus (400 ASA) Motion Picture Film Specs

Did anyone try that?

I’ve used quite a lot of it and I really like it.
Unfortunately it’s also been discontinued.

The replacement is N75, which is listed as an ISO 320 film. I haven’t tried the new stuff but reports here and on RFF have been favorable.

In the case of either N74+ or N75 it’s much easier to find in bulk rolls than in cassettes. I have found Orwo’s current films to be very good products.

NB23 · Nov 30, 2020

Foma 100, 100
tmax, 80
Fp4, 125
foma 200, 100

runswithsizzers said:
This brings up an interesting question in my mind. "Which ISO 100 films give good results when metered at ISO 100?" Rather than sidetracking this thread, I have started a new thread for answers to that question, <here>.

Thanks for that.

100 and 400 traditional emulsion film (35mm)

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