İlford Hypan Hardener - lifespan and fixer re-usage

[el wacho]

hi,
on the instructions it says that this hardener at the recommended dilution will last 7 days in ilford's hypam fixer ( at 1:4 ). so is the fixer rendered useless after 7 days or can one add a new dose of hardener concentrate and continue using the fixer as normal?

thanks in advance.

 

[vedmak]

fixer is working not because of hardener, so adding hardener to an exhausted fixer is not going to help, I usually avoid hardener in the fixer unless you are developing adox/efke type films, since it makes it harder in the final wash.

 

[fschifano]

I agree about the hardener. The hardener has no effect on the fixing capacity or lifespan of the fixer. It is there only to toughen up the gelatin. Modern films anad papers already have a sufficiently toughened gelatin, making the hardener completely unnecessary.

But I digress. Ilford is being extremely conservative with their lifespan number for HYPAM. While it's not my usual fixer I have used it and it lasts a lot longer than the 7 days that Ilford recommends as its useful lifespan. Bottle it up with a good tight fitting lid and use it to exhaustion, then chuck it. I can honestly say that I've never had a batch of fixer go bad on me from age.

 

[clayne]

There are some valid areas to use hardener BTW. I wouldn't use it with fixer as a general use, but sulphide toning DOES soften the emulsion noticeably.

 

[Ian Grant]

You shouldn't need to add hardener for film fixing even now with the high temperatures, I have to process films at 26°C and don't have any problems, hardener just adds to the wash times.

If you're still using Pyrocat the tanning effects of the developer hardens films and even Adox/EFKE films are OK.

As Clayne says it may be useful with some papers, the Foma emulsions are quite soft, and a hardener would help, but again is not necessary with most as they are well hardened during manufacture, and wash times for papers after hardening fixer really are a lot longer.

Ian

 

[el wacho]

i don't know how to ask the question in another way but i'll try,


when one uses ( for whatever particular testing they are doing ) hardener according to the instructions and the instructions say that the working life of the solution has a life of 7 days ( to which i am assuming that the hardening function is exhausted ), will the said solution continue to function normally? ( say you only ran one roll in those seven days and you wanted to run a second roll, remembering that the fixer was mixed at rapid fix dilutions )

so this question is about ilford hypam mixed at 1:4 combined with their hardener at their recommended dilution, the exhaustion of the hardener ( or the possible corruption of the whole solution - which is the heart of the question ) and what state is the fixer in after the exhaustion of the hardening component and whether i could entertain the possibility of continuing to use that fixer by adding a new shot of the hardener at ilford's recommended dilution.


thanks again,

 

[Ian Grant]

Ilford say the Hypam lasts 7 days in an open tray, that's regardless of whether hardener is added. In a bottle or with a lid it's very much longer up to 6 months.

Hardener has little or no effect on the life of the fixer, have a read of the full data-sheet because Ilford actually say:

Generally for most applications modern camera
films are sufficiently hardened at manufacture.
Additional hardening from a fixer hardener is not
usually needed or recommended for dish (tray),
spiral tank, deep tanks, rotary processors, dip and
dunk (hanger) processors and short leader
processors, unless the processing temperature is
above 30ºC (86ºF) or poor drying performance is
being experienced or shorter drying times are
needed. A fixer hardener may be needed when
using a roller transport film processor to minimise
the risk of physical damage.

But if you do want to use one just carry on as normal.

Ian

 

[el wacho]

... so it is assumed that the conservative expiration times given are related directly to the fixer's life and has nothing to do with the fixer-hardener combination. thanks İan.

i'm experiencing "poor film drying performance" (which is listed as a reason to use a hardener on the full data-sheet) with panf50 120 and Acros 100 and i'm not experiencing this tri-x and was curious as to why of the big three companies, Kodak was the only one not suffering terrible water spots. water is hard here in Nigde but even with distilled water the panf film water spots are minimilized but not completely eradicated. i've located the problem down to the drying stage where a drop is left in a smooth tone (sky) and as it evaporates ( my working theory is ), whatever is in the drop is becoming concentrated enough to bleach(?) at the final point of complete evaporation. the spots look like Andrew Moxom's examples on this (there was a url link here which no longer exists). at first i ran with the iron particle theory, to the point of using bottled water with negligable or no iron levels ( Erikli water so far has given me the minimum spots, on par with distilled water ) i suspect its the calcium carbonate - Nigde is next to a Massif where they are mining calcium carbonate and marble. Hardening is part of the due diligence in testing. how can it only be happening with ilford and fuji films and not kodak? i've also tried excessive washing regimes ( 10 changes of bottled water soaks over an hour - excessive in light of the ilford washing sequence ) and it doesn't completely eliminate the problem. you can imagine that i'm at my wits end here...

 

[Ian Grant]

I keep meaning to get a Britta or similar water softening filter, I have one in the UK but not here in Turkey. I find even the bottled water here still has some mineral content and the tap water's very poor like yours, worse now in the summer.

It might be sensible to use bottled or filtered water for mixing chemicals as well, like you I get occasional issues here which I've never seen when processing in the UK, and the only difference is the water.

Ian

 

[jerry lebens]

The water in Brighton is very hard but I still mix up my chemistry with it, it's the washing/drying stage that causes the problems. I suspect that, if there's any trace of hard water on the film as it dries, the limescale crystals precipitate out causing distortions in the film's emulsion as they form. The crystals literally push the grains of silver in the emulsion about, creating the local distortions which you describe so well in skies etc.
Once the film has dried you can attempt to wash away the superficial traces of limescale that remain, but it's pointless because irreparable physical damage has already been done to the emulsion.

My solution to this is to wash the film in running (hard) tap water, shake the film to remove excess hard water and then to rinse it twice in virgin distilled (or de-ionised) water, then to dry it normally. This dilutes and washes away the calcium salts before they get a chance to do any harm. I use this for both hand and machine processing and since I started this regime I've never had any problems.

I know some purists who insist on mixing up all chemistry in distilled water but I don't really see the point, it's too expensive. Hard water doesn't affect the activity of the chemistry as far as I can see, only the drying. (Even if it did, the the effect would be relatively consistent from batch to batch and therefore not significant, any such effect would be compensated for by doing the usual ISO tests etc.)

Regards
Jerry

 

[Ian Grant]

The tap water here in Turkey (where I live) is in a very different league to even the hardest of UK tap water which is at least drinkable

If the water where El Wacho lives is like ours then it's unpalatable it has such a high mineral content, it causes big problems with air bells in developers, the water gets even worse as the reservoirs dry up and it's drawn from boreholes and much comes in by tanker. There's also an issue with suspended particles, our mixer tap in the Kitchen has a relatively coarse filter (on the spout) and that starts to block every few weeks, the particles are quite large so smaller ones will be getting into mixed chemistry.

Normally I wouldn't bother but my feeling is that using water filtered through a water softener here in Turkey for all stages would help eliminate many issues. De-ionised/distilled water is quite expensive compared to the UK.

Ian

 

[jerry lebens]

I take your point completely, Ian. I'm sure the water here is probably processed better. Labs in this area tend to use these sorts of gizmos http://www.envirogadget.com/water-saving/small-wonder-electronic-hard-water-treatment-gadget/ allied to filtration. But if the quality of your water fluctuates badly I can imagine that there would be further difficulties.

Assuming that you're forced to use tap water for some things and you can take the sorts of precautions Ian and I have given you, El Wacho, I'd also suggest that you try to arrange for any water you're going to use to stand for a day or so prior to use, too. It allows muck to settle and air bubbles, sometimes created in the pipework etc, to rise off. You could do this with big plastic container, say 25 l, with a tap (set slightly above the base).

Regards
Jerry

 

[Ian Grant]

Old Agfa books, Hans Windisch etc suggest boiling the water, then leaving to settle for a few hours. The boiling helps coagulate some of the dissolved minerals, and i get a scum formed quickly when I heat tap water here, or even just run a bath. The only problem is gas and electricity are far more expensivehere than in the UK

Ian