Danziger Gallery Exhibits "AI-generated color version" of Ansel Adams' "Moonrise, Hernadez, New Mexico" at AIPAD

[BrianShaw]

I see the discussion has reached the point where we're exploring whose AI is the best at tackling the issue.

It seems to me that the back-and-forth is more about what prompt gets the most accurate information from AI-enabled queries. The problem with citing AI is that without knowing the prompt it is hard to know if AI was best equipped to address the issue being discussed. Also, without citing the sources of the AI response it is difficult to validate the veracity of the AI response other than a "it seems reasonable to me" or "it came from AI so it might be correct" presentation. Neither is as useful to an intellectual discussion as verifiable information from an informed source. When clarifying seemingly erroneous claims the subsequent discussion can seem like, but may not be, petty squabbling. It's part of the process for transmogrifying uninformed opinion into informed knowledge. But coffee breaks are definitely good and useful... for humans.

 

[Alan Edward Klein]

If the objections come down to the ethical "it's legal and accepted but shouldn't be done" argument, then this discussion is DOA and destine to keep going around in circles because AI is reading it too and will keep repeating both sides.

You're right about going in circles. It's basically a variation of "what is art?" and don't mess with our Saint Ansel.

 

[Alan Edward Klein]

It seems to me that the back-and-forth is more about what prompt gets the most accurate information from AI-enabled queries. The problem with citing AI is that without knowing the prompt it is hard to know if AI was best equipped to address the issue being discussed. Also, without citing the sources of the AI response it is difficult to validate the veracity of the AI response other than a "it seems reasonable to me" or "it came from AI so it might be correct" presentation. Neither is as useful to an intellectual discussion as verifiable information from an informed source. When clarifying seemingly erroneous claims the subsequent discussion can seem like, but may not be, petty squabbling. It's part of the process for transmogrifying uninformed opinion into informed knowledge. But coffee breaks are definitely good and useful... for humans.

If these are the results we can expect from AI, maybe our jobs are safe after all.

 

[BrianShaw]

You're right about going in circles. It's basically a variation of "what is art?" and don't mess with our Saint Ansel.

I think, at it's most basic level, the issue is a bit more than that. But it's largely driven by emotions and ethics, with an interesting mix of assumption and unknowns. Perhaps it's time to move on until further knowledge is learned. It's not surprising the immediate reactions from the two parties involved are somewhat constrained and carefully stated. That's what lawyers are good at doing... and for good reason.

 

[Milpool]

Whatever you can get away with is what people will do. Nothing new there. The only thing I find a little over the top about it is the price, which is sort of them showing their hand. It's a $50 thing plus $9,950 they pocket (assuming anyone buys it) because of the name Ansel Adams.

 

[BrianShaw]

... because of the name Ansel Adams.

and/or because of the novelty and, now, celebrity of the resulting product.

 

[Milpool]

I guess. Maybe. I still don't understand the case for buying one of these for anywhere near that kind of price.

and/or because of the novelty and, now, celebrity of the resulting product.

 

[Arthurwg]

Dead horse starting to smell.

 

[Don_ih]

Proper citation was made in accordance with accepted academic integrity.

No, the result is being sold at a premium price, which suggests it is worth something in its own right. It's not an academic exercise, Brian. You could perform an academic exercise with an unknown public domain image and try to sell it at an inflated price (see how that goes) or do it with a famous image and not try to sell it. What level of notoriety would they have achieved with either of those?

And I'm not actually saying it shouldn't be done. The entire point of what I'm saying is it's as worthless as a downloaded image printed out on someone's office printer.

 

[Don_ih]

Dead horse starting to smell.

No, it's already a dried up skeleton at this point.

 

[Alan Edward Klein]

I guess. Maybe. I still don't understand the case for buying one of these for anywhere near that kind of price.

If we can trust AI at this point, it stated that one person purchased one copy, the largest one, from Danziger at the AIPAD show for $10,000. Time will tell if it's a good investment. More interesting is whether others will repeat what Danziger did now that the cat is out of the bag, and use AI to create other versions.

 

[BrianShaw]

And I'm not actually saying it shouldn't be done. The entire point of what I'm saying is it's as worthless as a downloaded image printed out on someone's office printer.

Your point is well understood. As is the point that the offerings aren't considered by some to be worth the price being asked. That's fine. Personal opinion is

And you aren't alone in that opinion. It's notable that they don't seem to be flying off the shelves, or being converted to post cards and coffee mugs either...

 

[Don_ih]

Personal opinion

Anyone can dismiss any statement as personal opinion if they fail to think about the reasons.

 

[Mike Lopez]

I see the discussion has reached the point where we're exploring whose AI is the best at tackling the issue. I think we need to break out the API's on our AI tools so we can connect them directly and the human participants can go and have a coffee or something while the AI's continue the back & forth on their own.

Or...and hear me out for a minute...maybe the most prolific poster in this thread could step away from the keyboard for a moment and go do something wild, like take a picture or touch grass or something. Jesus...

 

[BrianShaw]

Anyone can dismiss any statement as personal opinion if they fail to think about the reasons.

Somewhat true. To be fully true it assumes that the personal opinion is the only correct opinion. Repeating personal opinion like it is Gospel is how horses get unalive...

To be frank, I completely understand your opinion but don't agree. Not dismissing it at all. The product offered is worthless if nobody buys it, and worth something if someone does. Profit motivation using stuff in the public domain is generally considered fair and acceptable, whether it's Adams' artwork or whatever. That's what public domain is and includes, whether we like it or not.

 

[MattKing]

I wonder if the purported "$10,000.00" sale was another case of what Peter Lik has been accused of with respect to memorable sale prices .....

 

[BrianShaw]

I wonder if the purported "$10,000.00" sale was another case of what Peter Lik has been accused of with respect to memorable sale prices .....

Market manipulation, in many market areas, is so pervasive and rampant that it doesn't pay to think very long about it.

 

[Alan Edward Klein]

Somewhat true. To be fully true it assumes that the personal opinion is the only correct opinion. Repeating personal opinion like it is Gospel is how horses get unalive...

To be frank, I completely understand your opinion but don't agree. Not dismissing it at all. The product offered is worthless if nobody buys it, and worth something if someone does. Profit motivation using stuff in the public domain is generally considered fair and acceptable, whether it's Adams' artwork or whatever. That's what public domain is and includes, whether we like it or not.

We seem to be focused only on what happens during the public domain period. What we haven't really focused on is that, in exchange for using your art to enrich the public how they wish after copyrights end, society has given the artist protection for exclusive use and profit from their art for their entire life plus 70 years. That also protects the artist's kids, grandkids and great grand kids during the copyright period. That's a great deal if you're a working artist or one of their heirs.

 

[BrianShaw]

Alan... have you read post #439. It's great advice! In fact, I'm taking it...

C'ya.

EDIT: In parting, though, I submit for your approval or outrage another consideration: appropriation or tribute?

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[Don_ih]

I completely understand your opinion but don't agree. Not dismissing it at all. The product offered is worthless if nobody buys it, and worth something if someone does.

That's not the main measure of value when it comes to art. It is worthless as an artwork - and that doesn't imply it won't be profitable.

 

[Milpool]

I’m puzzled by the notion this protection is some sort of altruistic gift from the market. (at least that’s the way it reads to me)

We seem to be focused only on what happens during the public domain period. What we haven't really focused on is that, in exchange for using your art to enrich the public how they wish after copyrights end, society has given the artist protection for exclusive use and profit from their art for their entire life plus 70 years. That also protects the artist's kids, grandkids and great grand kids during the copyright period. That's a great deal if you're a working artist or one of their heirs.

 

[MattKing]

I’m puzzled by the notion this protection is some sort of altruistic gift from the market. (at least that’s the way it reads to me)

Copyright law helps establish a means to monetize and protect a financial value. For example, a valid copyright is something that a lender may rely upon when advancing a loan.
Not unlike a registered title to a car.

 

[Vaughn]

I wonder if the purported "$10,000.00" sale was another case of what Peter Lik has been accused of with respect to memorable sale prices .....

A hint of this might be where it goes next. Some states do not charge sales tax on art that is put into public display for a period of time after the sale. There are museums in such states that offer this 'service'. It is a way to bump up a price without getting an significant tax bill. Peter Lik has taken advantage of this, I believe.

Copyright laws are the retirement accounts of artists, and the spring of their kids' inheritance. Don't mess with them.

 

[Craig]

AI has no place in an intellectual discussion.

 

[Don_ih]

AI has no place in an intellectual discussion.

Nice idea. However, more and more people won't commit even any errant thought they have to post until they've vetted it via some dimwit device or other.

The first thing people should get over in order to advance their own ability to think independently is the fear of being wrong.