Black stripe when adapting vintage lens

[Yaeli]

Hello everyone,

I bought a Helios 44 in M39 mount to adapt to my EOS R. I adapted it using the recommended technique I found online (ie : Soviet 16.4mm extension tube + Leica M39 to EOS R adapter). It works well, and I have no issue with the focus at infinity, but... on some images, I get a very clear dark stripe on one side of the image that has no explanation in the scene I'm photographing (see examples below). It's not on all pictures, and it doesn't seem to be linked to the aperture I use. It does seem to appear more often when I use the camera on vertical, though. So if you guys have any idea where that might be coming from, I'd be grateful to know !
It's not too much of an issue, since a graduated filter in Lightroom generally gets rid of it, but still, I'm curious.
Thank you beforehand !
Yael

 

[xkaes]

What's your shutter set for -- mechanical, electronic, etc.???

 

[Yaeli]

What's your shutter set for -- mechanical, electronic, etc.???

Mechanical, always. I've had issues with the electronic shutter indoors a long time ago (with tungsten light), and I swore never to use it again ^^.

 

[MattKing]

I would guess that something in the adaptation has moved the light path off centre.

 

[Yaeli]

I would guess that something in the adaptation has moved the light path off centre.

I guess it's possible, but I really can't see what. The M39 adapter is a perfect fit, and the extension tube is just a hollow metal ring, and the screw mount is in a good shape. So I can't see what would throw the light path off center. It also doesn't explain why it's not a consistent "bug", and only appears on some images, don't you think ?

 

[MattKing]

I guess it's possible, but I really can't see what. The M39 adapter is a perfect fit, and the extension tube is just a hollow metal ring, and the screw mount is in a good shape. So I can't see what would throw the light path off center. It also doesn't explain why it's not a consistent "bug", and only appears on some images, don't you think ?

If any of the adapter components are bent, the plane of focus would be askew, and the image would be displaced from centre.

 

[Yaeli]

If any of the adapter components are bent, the plane of focus would be askew, and the image would be displaced from centre.

Yes, that makes sense. But I don't understand why it wouldn't appear all the time. Anyway, it's not too big of a deal. I guess I'll just keep adding a graduated filter when needed. Thanks anyway !

 

[MattKing]

Yes, that makes sense. But I don't understand why it wouldn't appear all the time. Anyway, it's not too big of a deal. I guess I'll just keep adding a graduated filter when needed. Thanks anyway !

Is thewre any correlation between the effect and a particular range of shutter speeds?

 

[Yaeli]

Is thewre any correlation between the effect and a particular range of shutter speeds?

It seems to appear only above 1/3000 of a second (the two examples I showed were at 1/4000 and 1/6000). But I also have other images shot at those shutter speeds that don't show that dark stripe, so I don't know.

 

[djdister]

It's more than a dark stripe - there is an area of about 20% of the frame that is darkened on the right side. But you are holding the camera sideways to shoot vertical, so it's actually receiving less light across the bottom 20% of the sensor, right? Try shooting a vertical by holding it the other way, just to confirm which part of the sensor is being affected by less light. And switch between mechanical and electronic shutter and keep notes. Could be the mechanical shutter is not moving at an equal speed across the entire sensor at some shutter speeds.

 

[runswithsizzers]

Have you proven the camera can make normal images with some other lens?

If the shutter moves vertically on that camera, I'd guess a shutter problem is far more likely than a lens/adapter problem.

 

[Yaeli]

It's more than a dark stripe - there is an area of about 20% of the frame that is darkened on the right side. But you are holding the camera sideways to shoot vertical, so it's actually receiving less light across the bottom 20% of the sensor, right? Try shooting a vertical by holding it the other way, just to confirm which part of the sensor is being affected by less light. And switch between mechanical and electronic shutter and keep notes. Could be the mechanical shutter is not moving at an equal speed across the entire sensor at some shutter speeds.

That's a good idea. I'll try holding it the other way around, and shooting at different shutter speeds, to see if it's reproductible or not. Thanks !

Have you proven the camera can make normal images with some other lens?

If the shutter moves vertically on that camera, I'd guess a shutter problem is far more likely than a lens/adapter problem.

It does not happen with any of my other lenses, no matter what shutter speed I use, or if I shoot vertical or horizontal. At least, not that I ever noticed, even recently. But I'm gonna do some testing to see if it's due to the shutter or to something else. Thanks !

 

[OAPOli]

I agree, this looks like shutter capping. This problem is generally more apparent on the fastest exposure times.

 

[Yaeli]

Ok, so, I did several tests today, and here's what I found :
1) It only happens with the Helios 44, not with my other lenses.
2) It only happens when I shoot vertical, not when I shoot horizontal.
3) It only happens at faster shutter speeds (it starts being visible above 1/2000 of a sec, not below, and it worsens the faster the shutter speed goes).
4) It "change side" when I turn the camera in vertical mode (appearing on the right or left depending on how I hold it).
5) It does not seem to happen when I use the silent (electronic) shutter.

So I have absolutely no idea what's going on. It doesn't seem to be a shutter issue from the camera, because it never happens with my other lenses. But it seems to be an issue when I combine high speed mechanical shutter and the Helios 44 lens. If you have any idea, I'm all ears ! Thanks beforehand
P.S : I can post pictures if you wanna check the results.

 

[xkaes]

Could your adapter affect your mechanical shutter operation at high speeds?????

 

[Yaeli]

Could your adapter affect your mechanical shutter operation at high speeds?????

Maybe ? But I have no idea how that would be possible, to be honest. I was thinking more about something wrong with the lens itself, that would only show at fast shutter speeds (since it's been "CLA'd" but by someone I since have come to distrust quite a bit). But again, I have no idea why that would be. The other possible explanation, maybe, is that something in the adapter itself interferes with the path of light during the closing of the curtain at high shutter speeds, or something in the extension tube. I'll have to inspect them both to see if anything could explain that.

 

[Ian C]

When I view the entire frame, it looks exactly as I’d expect if the moving slit formed by the high shutter speed moves too quickly as it passes over the area to left, what we often describe as “shutter capping.” Such things are often seen on old cloth-ribbon focal-plane shutters that travel unevenly. But in that case, the dark area would form along one end of the long dimension due to the horizontal travel of the curtains. On your modern camera, the curtains travel across the smaller dimension of the opening.

I then wondered about a problem with the reflex mirror, but I learned that the EOS R is mirrorless.

It certainly looks like shutter capping. But how this can be caused by a particular lens is indeed baffling.

Some comments I found on Google suggest possible problems using an older mechanical lens on this camera. One video suggests using the “RELEASE SHUTTER W/O LENS” setting with a non-electronic-coupling lens.

If you’re not doing this, it’s worth trying.

 

[Yaeli]

It certainly looks like shutter capping. But how this can be caused by a particular lens is indeed baffling.

Some comments I found on Google suggest possible problems using an older mechanical lens on this camera. One video suggests using the “RELEASE SHUTTER W/O LENS” setting with a non-electronic-coupling lens.

If you’re not doing this, it’s worth trying.

It sure looks like shutter capping. But why it only happens in certain cases, I have no idea.
As for "release shutter without lens", it is "activated". I don't think you can use vintage lenses without using that setting.

 

[xkaes]

Your Helios aperture is only manually set, correct?

 

[Yaeli]

Your Helios aperture is only manually set, correct?

Yes. It is a preset system (so 2 aperture rings : one with clicks, and the other one smooth). I have not noticed issues with it so far : the blades appear to work properly.

 

[xkaes]

I don't see how the lens could be causing this, but who knows?!?!?

 

[Yaeli]

I don't see how the lens could be causing this, but who knows?!?!?

Me neither, but it's either that, or the adapter system, because nothing happens with my EF lenses, so it's not coming from the shutter curtain itself (which is a massive relief, to be honest).

 

[xkaes]

Maybe the camera is thinking that no lens is attached -- and "hallucinates"?????

 

[OAPOli]

I was going to say maybe there is an obstruction in the lens that causes the strange vignetting, but it apparently it is ok.

It doesn't make sense that the shutter would misbehave only with one lens. The best explanation is that the issue is intermittent and that you've been "lucky".

 

[loccdor]

It sure looks like shutter capping. But why it only happens in certain cases, I have no idea.

I have a camera that only shutter caps in certain cases. Like yours, it's more common at the highest speeds and in vertical orientation. I'm sure the orientation part has to do with gravity. The EOS R is a relatively new camera for that to be happening to though, unless maybe some grime got into the shutter somehow.