Vintage 120 Folders: Is there still a market for them?

[kingbuzzie]

I recently tried to sell a really nice Jurgen Kreckel refurbished ercona I with a tessar and the 6x6 mask for what I thought was a reasonable $200 with no takers. I'm now thinking of listing my voigtlander perkeo w/ color skopar for the same reason: lack of use. Somewhat related, I'm often impressed with some of the photos I see from tessar folders posted online but mine are always so unimpressive. I stop down to around f8 when I can.

 

[Prest_400]

I see Perkeos appreciated for being very compact. I got myself a Super Ikonta IV with a Tessar a couple years ago as secondary backup camera. It's nice, but I notice the double gauss of my Fuji 6x9 is sharper, of course.
Top of the line folders do go for high prices, specially the Super Isolette. Then it depends where what and condition.

Actually, as online the scans tend to be smaller, they look good whereas own negatives it's easier to peep more either scanned or printed. However, at about 10x10" print size the Tessars are very good! If wider than the f8 sweet spot there is quite some character.

 

[blee1996]

A professional CLA on a medium format folder might be valued by the user but not by the buyers. Especially folders like Ercona which are not top of the line (e.g. no rangefinder coupling) can be bought quite cheaply.

I got my Perkeo II serviced and enjoy using it. But I'm quite certain that I will lose money if I decide to sell it.

 

[Dan Fromm]

Hmm. My Perkeo II is a joy to use but before I retired it I never got a satisfactorily sharp shot with it. Nice pictures, but no sharp; sharpness is overrated.

Charlie Barringer had the same experience with his.

OP, I have no idea what drives demand for these old crocks. That said, 120 film ain't cheap and neither is processing. Also, cell phones are better than good enough for most snapshots.

 

[Dan Daniel]

I recently tried to sell a really nice Jurgen Kreckel refurbished ercona I with a tessar and the 6x6 mask for what I thought was a reasonable $200 with no takers. I'm now thinking of listing my voigtlander perkeo w/ color skopar for the same reason: lack of use. Somewhat related, I'm often impressed with some of the photos I see from tessar folders posted online but mine are always so unimpressive. I stop down to around f8 when I can.

One thing is that cameras and cameras types go through cycles. And rise and fall for a variety of reasons. One post by a popular social media person can make a type explode. I follow a few different cameras at Ebay and other such places and I have seen swings in prices, numbers for sale, etc. in most any. Even, believe or not, Leica and Hasselblad, probably the two most regular and stable selling cameras.

Patience?

 

[RalphLambrecht]

Hmm. My Perkeo II is a joy to use but before I retired it I never got a satisfactorily sharp shot with it. Nice pictures, but no sharp; sharpness is overrated.

Charlie Barringer had the same experience with his.

OP, I have no idea what drives demand for these old crocks. That said, 120 film ain't cheap and neither is processing. Also, cell phones are better than good enough for most snapshots.

Sharpness is a bourgeois concept.
HCB

nothing is worse than a sharp picture of a fuzzy
concept.
AA
cell phones,or better mobile phones, are heresy.
RWL

 

[runswithsizzers]

I just bought a vintage medium format folding camera last month, so I know there is at least a small market for them.

I paid $75 for a Zeiss Icon Nettar 517/2. Mine is a basic model with nothing fancy for a lens or shutter, but it is really clean, so I thought the price was fair.

Personally, I was kind of hoping for a little more "character" from the triplet lens, but results from the first roll look sharper than I was expecting.

Sure, I'd love to have a faster lens, a built-in range finder, and a proper frame counter with double exposure prevention, but the prices on the higher spec models scared me away.

 

[Alan9940]

I've been very satisfied with the results I've gotten from both of my Zeiss Ikon folders with Tessar lens. Sure, they're not as critically sharp as my Hasselblad lenses, but sharp enough for the print sizes I produce.

 

[4season]

My impression is that demand is modest, and centered around a small number of cameras. Which can be great for someone looking for a bargain, because there are so many worthy possibilities out there which are completely off everyone's radar.

I spotted an Ercona folder in decent condition at my local thrift store, think asking price was maybe $25. I could not have resold it for $200 because I am not a known go-to guy for folding cameras like JK is, and I don't recall it having a Tessar lens, or a full range of shutter speeds.

Earlier this year, I took delivery of an autocollimator, and wasted no time going through some of my underperforming cameras, one of which was an Agfa Isolette III, and it needed readjustment for sure. Still need to run a roll of film through it, but I'm pretty confident that I'll finally get to see what it's 3-element lens can really do.

 

[hsandler]

Folders tend to be problematic, mainly bellows and parallelism of the front standard. There was a good article by Dante Stella a few years ago called "Folding up on folders" that can be found archived somewhere. I have had 6x9, 6x6 and 6x4.5 folders. I generally find the 6x4.5 size has the least problems and the compactness is the most impressive. I like my Ikonta 521A with Novar Anastigmat lens. The only thing about those is the lack of an accessory shoe, which would make flash photography and using an external rangefinder much more convenient. I recently got a Zenobia C I which has a 4 element lens and impresses.

Full disclosure: I moderate a flickr group called "Folding Fanatics" and want to encourage more folder photography. https://www.flickr.com/groups/foldingfanatics/

 

[moggi1964]

Love my FS. (She's had a clean since the pictures)

 

[Ian Grant]

One problem is few outside the former Eastern Block will appreciate that the Erconar is, essentially an East German VEB Zeiss Ikon camera. Also the Tempor shutter is relatively unknown by most of us.

In terms of pricing I can easily find an Ensign 820 Selfix. in excellent condition for around $100, very similar specification. While these cameras are very capable they are not desirable of the 120 folders.

I bought a Zeiss Super Ikonta 533/16 a couple of weeks ago (@moggi1964) will guess who from) for £40 (under $54). It looks like it has hardly ever been used. Shutter is accurate at all speeds, has a rangefinder, and light meter, both work perfectly. OK the focus was solid & wouldn't budge, but was a quick fix, optics - the Opton Tessar - is like new.

In this case the 533/16 is a keeper & a camera I will use, for the same reasons they sell easily, the Automated film wind, no reliance on Red windows, and the extra feature like the Rangefinder & Meter

However, having a camera refurbished, restored, serviced, can be almost as much as a possible re-sale value. That's speaking as someone who restores, repairs, and services cameras, but I specialise in Wood & Brass, early roller blind shutters.

I have had cameras I've bought serviced, but then used them for a few years use, before sold them. The reliable use quickly recoups the service costs.

Ian

 

[BrianShaw]

I bought a Zeiss Super Ikonta 533/16 a couple of weeks ago (@moggi1964) will guess who from) for £40 (under $54). It looks like it has hardly ever been used. Shutter is accurate at all speeds, has a rangefinder, and light meter, both work perfectly. OK the focus was solid & wouldn't budge, but was a quick fix, optics - the Opton Tessar - is like new.

This exemplifies the vast majority of folder buyers IMO. Including me. Basically bottom feeder who buys a very inexpensive but promising camea and fixes it to user status. It seems that there are many fewer folder buyers who are willing ot pay the premium for a fully restored (and justifiably expensive) folder.

p.s. Ian... I'm not calling you a bottom feeder, at least not in the negative sense of the term. That seems a very smart buy and a brilliant restoration.

 

[Sirius Glass]

I recently tried to sell a really nice Jurgen Kreckel refurbished ercona I with a tessar and the 6x6 mask for what I thought was a reasonable $200 with no takers. I'm now thinking of listing my voigtlander perkeo w/ color skopar for the same reason: lack of use. Somewhat related, I'm often impressed with some of the photos I see from tessar folders posted online but mine are always so unimpressive. I stop down to around f8 when I can.

Some people now are economically stress. Hopefully the buyers will come forward when things pick up.

 

[Melvin J Bramley]

Old folder owners are a cult!
That said there is something satisfying when you produce good images from 50 or 60 year old cameras.
I have on my walls, 24 x 36 inch digital produced images that are no more interesting than my 8 x 10 or 16 x 20 wet processed enlargements.

 

[BobDavid]

I have two Bessa 6X9s.
1. Bessa I, it is spotless. It has a coated Vaskar lens. The shutter speeds are very accurate. The Vaskar is a 3-element Cooke design. At f/8 it is extremely sharp and contrasty in the center. The edges are noticebly softer, but is perfectly suitable for environmental portraiture. The Vaskar out-performed the two Color Skopar versions that I ended up selling.
2. Bessa II with a Color Heliar lens. The shutter speeds are a bit sluggish, but are consisitent, so it's not much of an issue. the Heliar is a terrific portait lens especially for its pleasing transition of out-of-focus areas. It does a nice job with landscapes, the corners remain fairly sharp. I love that camera because it's so light and portable. I have a snap on yellow filter for it.

 

[Besk]

My Agfa Record III with the Solinar lens isn't as sharp as some of the more modern lenses but the camera makes a great companion for my 35mm camera when traveling. I use it when I want something give smoother tones (in B&W) than 35mm film when enlarged to 11x14. And it is always on a tripod or a solid surface when used.

 

[film4Me]

I recently tried to sell a really nice Jurgen Kreckel refurbished ercona I with a tessar and the 6x6 mask for what I thought was a reasonable $200 with no takers. I'm now thinking of listing my voigtlander perkeo w/ color skopar for the same reason: lack of use. Somewhat related, I'm often impressed with some of the photos I see from tessar folders posted online but mine are always so unimpressive. I stop down to around f8 when I can.

If you check the sold listings on ebay, you'll see Erconas going for less than US$100, or hardly much more.

Perkeos are fetching upwards of US$800.

As someone said, refurbishment means little to a buyer. Smart buyers know that if the refurbishment goes pearshaped, they're stuck with it. To get $200 for your Ercona, it's likely to need the leather case, the original box, and perhaps the user instructions accompanying the camera. These are what I look for myself if a high price is being asked for a camera.

For the last ten years, folders are all I've been buying, I love the antique value and the simple technology, and I particularly love exposing film in them regardless of quality.

We all have our favorite brands as well I imagine, mine are Kodak, Franka, Zeiss Ikon, and Wester. I have two Voigtlanders, a 6x9 with Vaskar lens, and a 35mm Vito (non folder), but they are all I want.

I was surprised at the prices paid for Perkeos in the sold listings. A Perkeo III with uncoupled rangefinder has the potential to break you bank account. What is it about these Perkeos? Are they cult cameras? It can't be just the Color Skopar lens, quite a few different cameras have that lens.

Is your Perkeo, a I, or II, or III? Prices paid for these range accordingly, from US$60 to US$800. Cosmetic condition usually matters as well when attempting to procure a higher than average price. A buyer can't really tell how the mechanicals are until it's in their hands, but the listing photos show cosmetics before deciding to purchase, and can influence the value to the buyer and/or how quickly the camera will sell.

With your Ercona, if it works well and you have faith in it, keep it listed and hope that it catches the eye of a Voigtlander lover who can't afford an Ercona II, or III. But you may have to extol all of it's virtues clearly to justify the higher than usual market price. If youv'e exposed film in it, show a couple of the best pics in the listing. That always helps. The alternatives are of course, lower the price, or simply hang on to the camera and try another time in the future.

 

[Ian Grant]

This exemplifies the vast majority of folder buyers IMO. Including me. Basically bottom feeder who buys a very inexpensive but promising camea and fixes it to user status. It seems that there are many fewer folder buyers who are willing ot pay the premium for a fully restored (and justifiably expensive) folder.

p.s. Ian... I'm not calling you a bottom feeder, at least not in the negative sense of the term. That seems a very smart buy and a brilliant restoration.

It's my Scottish heritage Brian. I have described myself as a being somewhat of a bottom feeder, a few times

However I mostly buy off the same trrade sellers, l have dealt with many for years, they give me better prices. It's not unknown to be told "I've got something for you".

Recently I've noticed sales of folders has dropped, there was a trend, young photographers buying almost anything that worked. High film prices swwms to have dampened demand, I should add the observations are based on the camera fair I go to.

Ian

 

[blee1996]

Most of the medium format cameras are like basic cars from 1970s, it is quite simple mechanism, lots of room between parts, and easy to repair by yourself. Therefore many of us will happily be a "bottom feeder", buying cheap and fixing ourselves.

 

[loccdor]

Folders are niche because an old folding medium format camera won't necessarily give you more detailed pictures than a 35mm film camera from this millenium. So people who use them tend to like something else about them to make up for the higher cost of film, longer time to load, more frequent film loading, higher amount of flare, problems with misalignment, inability to change focal length, etc. etc. etc. In addition there were more total 35mm cameras made, and more of them that have been stored in good shape, which makes them more affordable.

I think that medium format folders made a lot more sense in the times of grainier film of lower resolution. I do like to use mine now and then, but from a technical image quality standpoint, I can't justify them. They're good when you have a pants pocket and don't want to carry around any sort of camera bag. Or when you really want to go for a vintage look in the image.

 

[runswithsizzers]

Most of the medium format cameras are like basic cars from 1970s, it is quite simple mechanism, lots of room between parts, and easy to repair by yourself. Therefore many of us will happily be a "bottom feeder", buying cheap and fixing ourselves.

I am curious to know if your comment about "easy to repair by yourself" also applies bellows repair / replacement?

When I first started looking at medium format folders, I was concerned about the bellows. They look like they might be fragile, and given the age of the material, light leaks might be a common problem? But I was just guessing.

Are light leaks in bellows a commonly encountered problem, and if so, how often is replacement necessary, as opposed to fixing the leaks with some kind of goop?

And if bellows replacement is necessary, can they be bought ready-made, or do you have to make one yourself?

 

[loccdor]

Are light leaks in bellows a commonly encountered problem, and if so, how often is replacement necessary, as opposed to fixing the leaks with some kind of goop?

After a few folders you get to know if they're likely to have pinholes by looking at the bellows. If the bellows seem in relatively good condition a little T-7000 black fabric glue is all you need. Yes it's common - maybe about half of them. Visible rips or tears, or all bellows corners showing wear and disintegration, you need a full replacement. For cheaper folders, that can cost as much as the camera is worth. I did it myself once and managed, though I am not great with camera repair.

You can usually find ready-made bellows from China.

 

[kingbuzzie]

If you check the sold listings on ebay, you'll see Erconas going for less than US$100, or hardly much more.

Perkeos are fetching upwards of US$800.

As someone said, refurbishment means little to a buyer. Smart buyers know that if the refurbishment goes pearshaped, they're stuck with it. To get $200 for your Ercona, it's likely to need the leather case, the original box, and perhaps the user instructions accompanying the camera. These are what I look for myself if a high price is being asked for a camera.

For the last ten years, folders are all I've been buying, I love the antique value and the simple technology, and I particularly love exposing film in them regardless of quality.

We all have our favorite brands as well I imagine, mine are Kodak, Franka, Zeiss Ikon, and Wester. I have two Voigtlanders, a 6x9 with Vaskar lens, and a 35mm Vito (non folder), but they are all I want.

I was surprised at the prices paid for Perkeos in the sold listings. A Perkeo III with uncoupled rangefinder has the potential to break you bank account. What is it about these Perkeos? Are they cult cameras? It can't be just the Color Skopar lens, quite a few different cameras have that lens.

Is your Perkeo, a I, or II, or III? Prices paid for these range accordingly, from US$60 to US$800. Cosmetic condition usually matters as well when attempting to procure a higher than average price. A buyer can't really tell how the mechanicals are until it's in their hands, but the listing photos show cosmetics before deciding to purchase, and can influence the value to the buyer and/or how quickly the camera will sell.

With your Ercona, if it works well and you have faith in it, keep it listed and hope that it catches the eye of a Voigtlander lover who can't afford an Ercona II, or III. But you may have to extol all of it's virtues clearly to justify the higher than usual market price. If youv'e exposed film in it, show a couple of the best pics in the listing. That always helps. The alternatives are of course, lower the price, or simply hang on to the camera and try another time in the future.

I think having my first medium format camera be a fuji GA645 has ruined me for a lot of other cameras. Like your first car I suppose. I have a durst 606, so I can never print the full 6x9, but I do live that ercona. I might sell the perkeo (it's a I). Yes, it's super compact but I also have a minox 35.

 

[blee1996]

I am curious to know if your comment about "easy to repair by yourself" also applies bellows repair / replacement?

When I first started looking at medium format folders, I was concerned about the bellows. They look like they might be fragile, and given the age of the material, light leaks might be a common problem? But I was just guessing.

Are light leaks in bellows a commonly encountered problem, and if so, how often is replacement necessary, as opposed to fixing the leaks with some kind of goop?

And if bellows replacement is necessary, can they be bought ready-made, or do you have to make one yourself?

At least in my experience, bellows have not been a big issue. A well kept camera from makers like Voigtlander and Zeiss typically have high quality leather bellows that can last very long. And like @loccdor said, you can tell when you handle it in hand. And even if there are a couple of pinholes, you can patch up with liquid black fabric paint.

The main trouble with bellows are Agfa folders and some later Kodak folders, which seem to be synthetic and degrade rather easily. So I never pay too much for those folders, unless they already have bellows replaced.