[8x11] Help me understand this Minox LX issue

[perkeleellinen]

Hello Subminiature friends!

Have a look at this picture, the roll of film (Velvia 50) starts at the bottom with #1 and proceeds toward the right. There are two issues I've highlighted as A and B.

A = shutter does not fire but camera winds on, two frames lost.
B = shutter does fire but camera does not wind on, approximately 15 frames lost.

The combination of A & B is puzzling.

How can the LX wind on if the shutter does not fire as in A?
With B I suspected the winding mechanism but a test roll of B&W (Tmax100) ran through the camera with no issues.

Regarding B I can remember this day clearly as I had dropped my car off at a garage for a service and I walked into the city centre. I bought a book and sat in a cafe reading it - that half frame photo is of the book. I remember walking around the city taking photos after that cafe stop. When I took the film out of the cassette, I could feel a lot of film still in the feed side of the cassette.

After this roll of film I shot maybe 5-6 other rolls of Velvia 50 without this issue. I am also 100% sure this is from the LX on account of the notches in the frames.

Any ideas?

 

[ic-racer]

The camera needs to be serviced.

If you are going to try to 'learn' this camera's repair sequence, you might need to buy a second one to practice as the LX service manual is of little help. I'd probably just get a second one that is known to work and be done with the this one.

 

[APL]

It looks like there's something wrong with your camera. I use a Minox B, and the film doesn't advance when the shutter isn't pressed.

 

[perkeleellinen]

I'd probably just get a second one that is known to work and be done with the this one.

Yes, I may well do this as the camera has been repaired twice now. The message from the technician last time was to ask if I slit / loaded my own film as I may be loading too long strips. I've been conscious of this but it doesn't seem to have helped.

Nice camera the LX, they sell for around 200 in the UK. I think I'd like to find one from a dealer to get a warranty.

 

[xkaes]

The message from the technician last time was to ask if I slit / loaded my own film as I may be loading too long strips. I've been conscious of this but it doesn't seem to have helped.

I don't know why or in what way that would make a difference. Minox cameras were made to accept film rolls of various lengths -- 15 to 50 exposures.

 

[Patrick Robert James]

If the camera worked fine later then I would lean towards an issue with the film. It probably wasn't cut right (too wide or not straight) or the light seal foam was sticky.

There are other reasons why it would do this, like the wind clutch, but no reason to confuse you unless it happens again. The wind clutch issue tends to overlap frames or double expose. Looks to me like the film just got stuck.

I can't really tell you why the shutter wouldn't fire. That is a different issue. Maybe your battery is almost dead and it was cold, or one of the blades wasn't being released. If it only happened on the two frames and has been fine since I wouldn't worry about it.

Hope that helps.

 

[xkaes]

You can determine if film is the culprit by using the camera without film in it. You won't get any negatives, of course, but you should be able to determine is the shutter is responding correctly -- by the sound.

 

[perkeleellinen]

Hmm, thanks, all.

Unloaded, I've never found an issue, the take up spool turns and the shutter sounds right. I slit my film with one of these: https://www.camerhack.it/product/mnmnx/ and I think it works really well. Film doesn't feel too tight when I load it but maybe I could work more on ensuring everything is taped square.

Strange how I've never had the problem with B&W but only with slide film. The way I work is to bunch up the slide film then send to the lab which prevents the more instant feedback from developing B&W at home. Because of this, I end up trying to work out what happened last June.

 

[FriedLouisStudio]

APL, you said that your Minox B does NOT advance the film if the shutter isn't pressed. Sorry, that's wrong.

I've owned two Minox Bs, my first one in 1967. And back in 1998 I wrote an online guide to Minox models - whose text I've now seen copied and repurposed in MANY Minox articles and guides.

All models up through the B advance the film when you close the camera whether you've taken a picture or not. The models C and BL were the first to be smartened up enough to only advance the film if you did expose a frame.

Anyway, it definitely looks like the OP's LX needs a repair. I eventually needed to have Don Goldberg service both my IIIs and B, and one of them had weird inter-neg spacing issues.

 

[xkaes]

I slit my film with one of these: https://www.camerhack.it/product/mnmnx/ and I think it works really well.

Maybe others can offer details on that slitter, and it may or may not be related to your problem. Minox film is often referred to as 9.5mm, but it's really not 9.5mm. That CAMERAHACK slitter says it cuts 9mm film. How exact is that? I have no idea. If it's creating 9.5mm strips, that's probably causes jamming. If it's cutting 9mm strips, that's OK, but a little too thin.

 

[xya]

Maybe others can offer details on that slitter, and it may or may not be related to your problem. Minox film is often referred to as 9.5mm, but it's really not 9.5mm. That CAMERAHACK slitter says it cuts 9mm film. How exact is that? I have no idea. If it's creating 9.5mm strips, that's probably causes jamming. If it's cutting 9mm strips, that's OK, but a little too thin.

I had several Minoxes and a lot of original film. I've sold it all, so I can't check, but as far as I remember my caliper said that the original film was 9.25 mm. So I had a slitter made with 9.25 mm and it worked well.

 

[xkaes]

That's right. I've always wondered what they used to decide on the exact film width -- some little know Latvian measuring system?

 

[xya]

Maybe the solution is easier. If we suppose they slit 120 film, available already in those days, you get 6 strips and cut off the margins with the inscriptions and the numbers. 120 film is 61.5 mm. 6 strips of 9,25mm are 55.5mm, leaving 3mm at each side which is fine. And each strip can be cut in 2, that makes 12 strips from 1 single roll. That's what I did with my custom made slitter....

 

[Kino]

I had several Minoxes and a lot of original film. I've sold it all, so I can't check, but as far as I remember my caliper said that the original film was 9.25 mm. So I had a slitter made with 9.25 mm and it worked well.

Just checked my 2 original Minox cartridges with original film and it is more in the ballpark of 9.30mm, but these are hardly precision calipers...

 

[xkaes]

Maybe the solution is easier. If we suppose they slit 120 film, available already in those days, you get 6 strips and cut off the margins with the inscriptions and the numbers. 120 film is 61.5 mm. 6 strips of 9,25mm are 55.5mm, leaving 3mm at each side which is fine. And each strip can be cut in 2, that makes 12 strips from 1 single roll. That's what I did with my custom made slitter....

You could very well be right, but I doubt that they were pre-exposing 120 edged in 1936. Maybe the Minox Historical Society knows!!??!??!?

 

[Patrick Robert James]

I recently built another slitter since the first one I made years ago wore out. I aimed for 9.3mm. I filed out the negative carrier of my Minox enlarger which needs the 9.3 to work right.

 

[perkeleellinen]

Film width is an interesting hypothesis. I no longer have a vernier or micrometer but could place a genuine Minox film strip next to a slit one and compare under a loupe. But that wouldn't account for why the issue is with slide film and never B&W. Is slide film much thicker? Could the light trap catch the film?

 

[sonora]

You could very well be right, but I doubt that they were pre-exposing 120 edged in 1936. Maybe the Minox Historical Society knows!!??!??!?

From what I've read about Minox history, the film was initially supposed to be smaller than 9,2mm but they changed it for some reason — here's a direct quote frorm submin.com:

The film was originally designed from splitting un-perforated 35mm film into four strips -- only 8.73mm wide and a negative size of 6x9mm. During the redesign of the Ur for production this was changed to the wider 9.2mm negatives and 8x11 format.​

I have no idea why exactly it was to 9,2mm, as they were working in metric as everyone else, but it may indeed have to do with the sizes of film they were slitting from.
Also yes, some film types tend to be thicker or thinner than others, but it also depends on what you're slitting from. Velvia 50 is much thinner in 120 than 135.

 

[xkaes]

I'll add that Minox was designed for the film of the 1930's -- which was not thin. I can't see why film thickness would cause a problem with the Minox -- other than the amount of film you can get in the cassette. I would think that if there was a problem with certain types of film, it would be well known.

But it does seem that any film wider than 9.2mm is potentially problematic. 9.5mm?

 

[xya]

You could very well be right, but I doubt that they were pre-exposing 120 edged in 1936. Maybe the Minox Historical Society knows!!??!??!?

120 film was launched in 1901, so it was already 35 years old then and may well have been pre-exposed. But a search on the web did not reveal to me the date when they started pre-exposing. An interesting question...

 

[xya]

120 film was launched in 1901, so it was already 35 years old then and may well have been pre-exposed. But a search on the web did not reveal to me the date when they started pre-exposing. An interesting question...

Going through old family photos from the 1930s on Agfa Film, these have numbering indeed. As far as I know Minox used Agfa film...

 

[Patrick Robert James]

I thought they originally designed the Minox around 9.5mm film which was a movie format back in the day. I could be wrong.

If you are slitting the film yourself I would think that is the issue. I use a different method to slit film. I pull it through a slitter from a 100" roll and I make damn sure I pull it straight. I've had issues when I was less experienced with rolls that were not straight and I tried using them anyway. Didn't turn out well. It is also possible that the edges are rough from dull blades which could make the film stick, or perhaps the foam is sticky. I've had those issues as well. I use double edge razors for my slitter since the blades are only .1mm thick. I surmised that thicker blades could be an issue with consistency of the width of the film.

Since I started using the new slitter film is sliding through my Minoxes like butter which was a bit of an eye opener. I also redid the take up clutch on all of mine too once I found out about it. It can be done without taking the camera apart. Pop the cover, take the screw out and clean the mechanism. Someone here wrote about it which shouldn't be too hard to find. In fact he has an entire Minox website that has a bunch of fantastic information.

You can buy calipers for a few bucks, less than the cost of film. You should probably verify what the slitter is doing.