Why Did Schneider Allow Schneideritis to Happen?

[BrianShaw]

"Allow" lol
I mean, come on.

Don’t you mean, c’mon man….

 

[lecarp]

I believe Schneideritis didn't exist in the 70's, or pre-internet for that mater. Its a term born of the internet.

 

[Peter Schrager]

I know for a fact it was caused by a defect in the paint. And yes they did fix a lens of mine but it never mattered anyway
Go take photos please

 

[ags2mikon]

In the late 1980's I was at a camera repairman's place to have 2 Nikons CLA'ed and I showed him one of my super angulons that had this funny look, and he told me it wouldn't affect the images but he could fix it with some black out paint on the cell edges. He told me it was like my Chevy pickup and his Oldsmobile. The paint didn't stick and it would work just fine with out being fixed. I had him fix it since I was there with the lens. He was right, it didn't work any better or worse after the repair. The 2 F-2's did work better after the repair because the meters were now reliable. Like the Chevy pickup the Schneiders sell at a discount with Schneiderits.

 

[mshchem]

Interesting if true. Fahrvergnügen means driving pleasure and featured in VolksWagen ads.

What were you thinking of?

 

[Ardpatrick]

I know this isn’t an issue exclusive to Schneider, but Schneider seemed to specialize in ‘known issue’ type problems.

My early serial number Super-Symmar 110xl was purchased by me, new from Robert White around 2003. The most expensive lens I ever bought.

I used it for 10 years, and then not so much for another 5-6 years, and subsequently upon returning to LF noted a sort of internal ‘milkiness’ when inspecting the lens. It’s not fungus. The internet revealed it to be another ‘known issue’ courtesy of Schneider. Some solvent used in the manufacture seems to gas-off over time, gradually fogging the lens. Pertinent to early serial numbers of the Super-Symmar lens range.

My lens works. I can shoot it and get negs of acceptable contrast in a non-scientific evaluation. But for such an expensive lens, with only one careful owner, I don’t think it’s cool.

When shopping these days for LF lenses I would always pick a Rodenstock over its Schneider equivalent, all other things being equal. In saying that I find Rodenstock lenses are often significantly more expensive. Last summer I ended up buying a 58XL & a 72XL, which were each considerably cheaper than the late Apo-Grandagon f4.5 75mm I was looking for.

 

[retina_restoration]

I know this isn’t an issue exclusive to Schneider, but Schneider seemed to specialize in ‘known issue’ type problems.

My early serial number Super-Symmar 110xl was purchased by me, new from Robert White around 2003. The most expensive lens I ever bought.

I used it for 10 years, and then not so much for another 5-6 years, and subsequently upon returning to LF noted a sort of internal ‘milkiness’ when inspecting the lens. It’s not fungus. The internet revealed it to be another ‘known issue’ courtesy of Schneider. Some solvent used in the manufacture seems to gas-off over time, gradually fogging the lens.

So, have you disassembled the lens groups to clean the air-spaced surfaces? It’s very common for volatile components to settle on these surfaces, and it’s easily cleaned off. I have to do it with about 70% of the Schneider lenses I service (on various Kodak cameras).

 

[BrianShaw]

So, have you disassembled the lens groups to clean the air-spaced surfaces? It’s very common for volatile components to settle on these surfaces, and it’s easily cleaned off. I have to do it with about 70% of the Schneider lenses I service (on various Kodak cameras).

There was a lot of discussion on forums on this issue, Large Format Photography Forum is the one I'm most familiar with, going back to about 2003 and repeating periodically. Sadly, folks who talked to Schneider engineers and/or sales reps reported a number of different causes ranging from the way the lenses were coated, to adhesives, to condensation from storage conditions, and even the composition of the glass itself. Seems like even Schneider had a difficult time achieving consensus on the cause. While at least one person reported having their lens serviced by Schneider an overwhelming were faced with "we do't service lenses for that condition anymore" repsonses. It was a sad time for Schneider it seems.

 

[Ardpatrick]

Don’t you mean, c’mon man….

There was a lot of discussion on forums on this issue, Large Format Photography Forum is the one I'm most familiar with, going back to about 2003 and repeating periodically. Sadly, folks who talked to Schneider engineers and/or sales reps reported a number of different causes ranging from the way the lenses were coated, to adhesives, to condensation from storage conditions, and even the composition of the glass itself. Seems like even Schneider had a difficult time achieving consensus on the cause. While at least one person reported having their lens serviced by Schneider an overwhelming were faced with "we do't service lenses for that condition anymore" repsonses. It was a sad time for Schneider it seems.

Thanks for recalling that Brian. I think those forums were where I was alerted to the fact that my lens appeared to suffer from what is called a ‘known issue.’

It’s pretty outrageous customer service for expensive items with ‘lifetime’ warranties.

My lens is operable. But like I posted above, whilst Schneideritus may be harmless, Schneider don’t have a great reputation for me. Hence my preference for Rodenstock if possible.

 

[Ardpatrick]

So, have you disassembled the lens groups to clean the air-spaced surfaces? It’s very common for volatile components to settle on these surfaces, and it’s easily cleaned off. I have to do it with about 70% of the Schneider lenses I service (on various Kodak cameras).

Thanks for the perspective Retina. I may at some point endure the expense of sending the lens to Belgium to a repair guy I trust. But it may be a waste of time & money.

 

[BrianShaw]

Understand your position; you're perfectly clear on that. It seems relatively common when a problem is endemic to an entire product line that the manufacturers tend to walk away from the liability/warrantee aspect. It could be that fuly resolving the problem would lead to financial ruin; I don't know for sure. That's why, at least in the US, there is strong consumer protection in some consumer product areas that lead to mandatory recalls. Even that, though, isn't 100%...

 

[retina_restoration]

Thanks for the perspective Retina. I may at some point endure the expense of sending the lens to Belgium to a repair guy I trust. But it may be a waste of time & money.

Disassembling lens groups to clean the air-spaced element surfaces does not require the assistance of a trained technician.

 

[Alan Edward Klein]

I bought a Schneider APO Symmar MC 150mm f/5.6 shipped from Japan dealer in 2020 without Schneideritis. $520. Still looks OK today. Maybe I got lucky.

 

[Ardpatrick]

I bought a Schneider APO Symmar MC 150mm f/5.6 shipped from Japan dealer in 2020 without Schneideritis. $520. Still looks OK today. Maybe I got lucky.

Well if you’re lucky, you’re lucky.

I’ve got about 10 Schneider lenses between taking & enlarging lenses. 9 of them are fine. But the most expensive one and the only one I bought new, isn’t okay.

I’ve got close to that number again in Rodenstock, and the same with Nikkor.

Never had any of these issues nor heard of Schneideritus with the Nikkor or Rodenstock gear. It’s just a preference. The last LF lenses I bought were Schneider because the price / spec / availability were there. I’m not suggesting anything dumb like don’t buy Schneider.

But to the OP’s actual question - my impression is that Schneider’s QC doesn’t quite match that of other manufacturers, although that doesn’t stop me desiring some of their late APO enlarging lenses!

 

[Ardpatrick]

Disassembling lens groups to clean the air-spaced element surfaces does not require the assistance of a trained technician.

I’m sure you’re right. But you’re also making some assumptions there that cleaning the lens groups will improve the situation. As Brian detailed above - this is a known issue. If it was as straightforward as you seem to suggest, I think Schneider would have suggested as such to the many photographers who have been affected by this issue. I don’t want to fiddle about disassembling a very expensive lens with no clear purpose. I might void my lifetime warranty

 

[Craig]

I might void my lifetime warranty

With the fog it's life is over, and so ends the warranty!

 

[retina_restoration]

I’m sure you’re right. But you’re also making some assumptions there that cleaning the lens groups will improve the situation. As Brian detailed above - this is a known issue. If it was as straightforward as you seem to suggest, I think Schneider would have suggested as such to the many photographers who have been affected by this issue. I don’t want to fiddle about disassembling a very expensive lens with no clear purpose. I might void my lifetime warranty

You do you.

 

[neilt3]

Now you've got me to thinking, and I'll spend the rest of the day wondering if everything, 'just is'? And if so, do we have free will to change what just is, or is it preordained? Can we even see what just is, or only the flickering shadow of it on our cave wall?

Quite simply it fate . Kismet.
Such is life . Deal with it .

i love Scneideritis--it gives me discounts on great lenses because people are afraid of it..

+1 on that . I've saved a lot of money on "flawed" lenses that have no effect on the photos taken .

Issues with my Schneider lenses? No problem...I have these [useless documents] ...Ha ha...
View attachment 417451

Good luck with them , keep them safe .

What are the details on the reverse side? Probably could help us better understand the "limited" nature of the lifetime warranty.

The lifetime guarantee covers you for the lifetime if the lens .
When a fault develops , the lenses "life" is considered over , therefore the guarantee has expired .
Only dust on the surface of the lens is included , but a charge might be applicable .

 

[DREW WILEY]

The problem with certain 80 and 110 Super-Symmar XL's was unique to that series, and is a completely different problem from common "Schneideritis". It's also apparently very difficult or impossible to cure. They replaced them for awhile, but then gave up.