Heiland LED Head As A Replacement For Legacy Cold Light Heads

[chuckroast]

A few years ago there were reports that at max contrast, the Heiland didn't produce as much contrast as using Ilford filters, both with Ilford MG. I wonder if that's the case now. (I have some negatives from decades ago taken in poor light that could do with max contrast. I used to use Brovira BEH-1 graded paper. I've thought of a couple of contrast-increasing print developers for current Ilford MG)

This is not my experience so far after making a half dozen prints on Fomabrom Variant 111 VCFB. I cannot speak to Ilford MG as I do not use it.

But per @koraks comments upthread, this seems at least questionable.

Getting to full black isn't just a filtration issue, it's also about developer strength and time. I am using an Ansco 130 like developer 1:1 for 3 min at a nominal 68F with no issue getting to strong blacks.

 

[Pieter12]

I remember the report from Ilford, stating the Heiland head only produced something like a grade 4.5. That was probably 7 or 8 years ago. I assume Heiland has made changes since, because I have no problem getting max contrast.

 

[MattKing]

I remember the report from Ilford, stating the Heiland head only produced something like a grade 4.5. That was probably 7 or 8 years ago. I assume Heiland has made changes since, because I have no problem getting max contrast.

7 or 8 years ago the Ilford RC papers at least had significantly different (slower) response to higher "grade" filtration than the current paper, so that may factor into the issue.

 

[Lachlan Young]

I also found the head to be a little bit more like a point-source, the prints are sharper.

The gist of Ilford's report was that the Heiland seems pretty close to the Ilford MG500 in grade placement - aka it tends to run about 1/2 grade harder than the equivalent marked Ilford filter, until about G4-4.5 where the Blue/ Green MG 500 and the Heiland run out of steam (due to limitations with the choice of a close equivalent to a #47 filter) - and the separate filters on white light deliver the correct G5. A little more macro contrast can make the apparent micro contrast higher. I'm not sure how much Heiland is making the LED panel sub assemblies themselves, or (more likely) assembling ones bought in from elsewhere (possibly made to their specifications, but unclear - especially given likely MOQ's) into suitably sized arrays - by way of an illustration, most of Heiland's production metalwork was/ is seemingly being done by Kienzle.

For whatever it's worth, the Intrepid head does seem to be able to do G5.

 

[chuckroast]

The gist of Ilford's report was that the Heiland seems pretty close to the Ilford MG500 in grade placement - aka it tends to run about 1/2 grade harder than the equivalent marked Ilford filter, until about G4-4.5 where the Blue/ Green MG 500 and the Heiland run out of steam (due to limitations with the choice of a close equivalent to a #47 filter) - and the separate filters on white light deliver the correct G5. A little more macro contrast can make the apparent micro contrast higher. I'm not sure how much Heiland is making the LED panel sub assemblies themselves, or (more likely) assembling ones bought in from elsewhere (possibly made to their specifications, but unclear - especially given likely MOQ's) into suitably sized arrays - by way of an illustration, most of Heiland's production metalwork was/ is seemingly being done by Kienzle.

For whatever it's worth, the Intrepid head does seem to be able to do G5.

Well, with Fomabrom 111 I've had no difficulty hitting full black split printing with only the 0.0 and 5.0 settings.

 

[Lachlan Young]

Well, with Fomabrom 111 I've had no difficulty hitting full black split printing with only the 0.0 and 5.0 settings.

That's a different thing from it delivering the equivalent of a grade 5 Multigrade filter.

 

[Pieter12]

The Ilford report used the older MGRC paper, the current stock might produce different results.

 

[Renato Tonelli]

How about making the adjustment for the Dry Down factor?

Looking over the Heiland literature but found nothing about it.

 

[chuckroast]

How about making the adjustment for the Dry Down factor?

Looking over the Heiland literature but found nothing about it.

You can adjust overall light output in very fine increments.

A lot of so-called "dry down" has more to do with the lighting you use to view the wet print. Over the years, I've gotten my wet side viewing lighting set so that what I see wet is pretty close to what I see dry. But, with experimentation, you should be able to dial down the light output on the controller to compensate for how you view prints wet.

 

[chuckroast]

That's a different thing from it delivering the equivalent of a grade 5 Multigrade filter.

Well, yes, but the point remains that full black is possible, at least with the papers I am using. If a Heiland #5 isn't exactly an Ilford #5, I don't care. I calibrate my entire workflow to work the way I want it to. Fussing about around theoretical paper grades isn't terribly productive in my experience. I want the workflow to deliver the look I want. I haven't worried about actual grades in decades.

 

[mshchem]

Has anyone here used one of these to print color?

 

[koraks]

If a Heiland #5 isn't exactly an Ilford #5, I don't care.

Others do. I do, for instance. While paper grades in general don't interest me, what does interest me is whether I have access to what the paper can do. And especially high-contrast performance is something really convenient to have for that odd negative with important shadow detail with little differentiation in that area.

Has anyone here used one of these to print color?

I've conversed once, a few years ago, with a gentleman who did. He also used a dichroic head. He noted differences between both systems in terms of the final print, even if he tried to get the filtration very close. That doesn't surprise me and it also doesn't say one is inherently better than the other.

 

[Lachlan Young]

The Ilford report used the older MGRC paper, the current stock might produce different results.

They've not altered the spectral sensitisation.

that full black is possible

That's about exposure & safelights and emulsion design, not grade. It is very useful to be able to exploit the full contrast range of any particular paper when you are dealing with negs that are not ones you made. And for that matter, a negative with optimal exposure and processing (i.e. the least possible of each) to land on the highest grade you can get away with will be noticeably crisper.

He also used a dichroic head

The other thing with some dichroics is that while they largely covered the ranges needed for colour (and have an inherently suitable light source), quite a few struggled to reach the outer limits of BW paper sensitisation grade ranges (see Kodak G24, p.2 for example) without use of extra filtration. I also know of someone who thought that swapping the cyan filter in a De Vere dichroic for a second magenta would get him more contrast - which it did, but mainly because of paper exposure reciprocity, not spectral sensitivity

 

[chuckroast]

Others do. I do, for instance. While paper grades in general don't interest me, what does interest me is whether I have access to what the paper can do. And especially high-contrast performance is something really convenient to have for that odd negative with important shadow detail with little differentiation in that area.

Yep, I understand that. My only point is that you can get there several ways. Assuming your light source/filtration system can "access what the paper can do", that's one way. But dividing splitting the exposure in two with one being full on soft and the other full on hard light is another, again, assuming the light source/filtration is adequate to the task.

My understanding (and it may well be wrong and I'm willing to learn here) is that a given fixed grade light source/filter will set the CI for the paper. But changing the ratio of hard light to soft light exposure time will do the same things. No?

 

[koraks]

My only point is that you can get there several ways.

If your exposure system can't hit the highest grade on the paper, no amount of split grade printing will save your posterior in the rare case you do need that hardest grade. That's what I'm saying.

My understanding (and it may well be wrong and I'm willing to learn here) is that a given fixed grade light source/filter will set the CI for the paper. But changing the ratio of hard light to soft light exposure time will do the same things. No?

Sure, but imagine the hardest grade you can get with your light source happens to be 4 and the softest is 00. Then if you find yourself needing grade 5 and the paper in itself is capable of achieving it, you'll still be stuck with grade 4 because you can only dial in grades from 00 to 4, and not beyond.

So if your Heiland or whatever unit can only do 4.5 and you want 5 some of the time, it's in those specific instances as useful as "a cat flap in an elephant house", so to speak (you may have to google that quote).

 

[chuckroast]

If your exposure system can't hit the highest grade on the paper, no amount of split grade printing will save your posterior in the rare case you do need that hardest grade. That's what I'm saying.


Sure, but imagine the hardest grade you can get with your light source happens to be 4 and the softest is 00. Then if you find yourself needing grade 5 and the paper in itself is capable of achieving it, you'll still be stuck with grade 4 because you can only dial in grades from 00 to 4, and not beyond.

So if your Heiland or whatever unit can only do 4.5 and you want 5 some of the time, it's in those specific instances as useful as "a cat flap in an elephant house", so to speak (you may have to google that quote).

Yes, that part I get and agree with. If the hard light cannot drive the paper to its highest possible contrast than the only alternatives you have are different filtration/light source, increasing contrast by chemical manipulation, or changing papers altogether.

I find needing contrast at grade 5 to pretty much be an edge case across thousands of negatives and many papers I have used, though (noting that I am not much a user of Ilford papers). That is to say, in those cases where I didn't like the contrast the filtration system was giving me, some combination of reduced soft light, increasing hard light time, using a highlight restrainer, increasing development time and/or decreasing developer dilution managed the problem.

So far at least, with the dozen or so prints I've made with the Heiland, it has been more than able to deliver what I wanted with VC split printing as described.

 

[mshchem]

When all my light sources go belly up, I'll probably be belly up too. If I had excess money I'd buy one of these heads to play with.

The Ilford heads of yesteryear were probably the easiest to use and understand. That's what I would like to see someone build anew.

 

[Pieter12]

They've not altered the spectral sensitisation.

You have this information, or just speculation?

 

[Lachlan Young]

You have this information, or just speculation?

It's literally in the data sheet in about as many words.

The differences are in the emulsion speeds, curves and emulsion characteristics related to image colour.

 

[Pieter12]

I saw it buried at the bottom.

 

[chuckroast]

When all my light sources go belly up, I'll probably be belly up too. If I had excess money I'd buy one of these heads to play with.

The Ilford heads of yesteryear were probably the easiest to use and understand. That's what I would like to see someone build anew.

Believe me, I had no intention of spending the money. But after a month of being forced to use a condenser head and Ilford filters, I sure am glad I got one.

The only option might have been to buy the Intrepid LED light source, but I have no idea how well or poorly it works and I would have had to fiddle a mount for the Omega system since - last I looked anyway - they did not offer one.

 

[Pieter12]

As stated before, pure black is easy to obtain with the Heiland head. But pure black can be obtained with any grade, given the right exposure. I guess if I felt the need to get a true #5 grade with the Heiland head, I could set it to white light and use a #5 filter. I have not come acrosss the need to do that yet.

 

[koraks]

The only option might have been to buy the Intrepid LED light source, but I have no idea how well or poorly it works

Don't count on true grade 5 on all papers. The blue is shifted quite far towards green on these.

But pure black can be obtained with any grade

That's not the issue. Also, it's not true on every paper.

 

[Lachlan Young]

Don't count on true grade 5 on all papers. The blue is shifted quite far towards green on these.

It seems capable of matching up on Ilford papers (and Fomatone) with the contrast delivered by max magenta from an LPL VCCE (maybe 1/2 grade harder or so than MG500/ Heiland maxed out).