Why Troop and Anchell dismiss TEA bases deva?

[ruilourosa]

PC tea and 510 pyro are not issued nor TEA as a solvent...

Pertaining results ir phylosophy?

 

[Rudeofus]

My impression is, that Bill still favors Metol very much over Phenidone, this would explain his reluctance to include PC TEA and 510 pyro. One should also consider, that PC TEA is said to lose half or even a whole stop of light, which is not very impressive as far as modern developers are concerned.

Not sure about his stance on TEA.

 

[ruilourosa]

It has to do with Triethanolamine... As a solvent and as a silver solvent...
PC tea is at worse a speed maintaining developer... And if mixed with some sulfite it will probably be a speed increasing Dev.

 

[pentaxuser]

It has to do with Triethanolamine... As a solvent and as a silver solvent...
PC tea is at worse a speed maintaining developer... And if mixed with some sulfite it will probably be a speed increasing Dev.

So what do you believe causes Troop and Anchell to exclude TEA and Pyro 510?

Thanks

pentaxuser

 

[Alan Johnson]

510 pyro would have been a work in progress when the Film Developing Cookbook was being prepared for publication in 2020.
The formula was changed by the inventor to 0.375g phenidone and times published in 2017 on Flickr.
Too much uncertainty to be included in FDC maybe.

 

[ruilourosa]

Pc tea is around for much more time...
In the last edition of tfdc they affirm that the silver solvency character is the culprit on 510 Pyro (?????) and in PC tea they affirm some issues regarding reliability, i think...

Never had issues with both... But i think they avoid them....

 

[ntenny]

I can’t find my copy right now, but I remember a very general comment in it about unaddressed issues with silver solvency; not sure if it was specific to PC-TEA or TEA recipes generally. I’ve always been curious about what they meant.

I dunno—the stuff works for me. My negatives probably kind of suck, but the developer isn’t the limiting factor there.

-NT

 

[Raghu Kuvempunagar]

Has every developer formula described in their book been actually tested by them on at least a few films? What is the criteria for inclusion of a formula?

 

[ruilourosa]

I really thought that they did verify!

Another question... Due to the
solvency character of Tea, is PC tea or 510 Pyro solvent devs? Could we compare solvency effect between tea, sulfite, sodium chloride or thyocyanates? Or even DTOP?
But specially sulfite...

Thanks

 

[Alan Johnson]

FDC 2020 p111-112 wrt TEA concludes ".....we don't like its silver solvent effect on film"

OTOH Rudiger Hartung produced a table of minimal agitation development times for 510 pyro new formula in 2017:

510-pyro

All about Jay DeFehr's 510-pyro developer

www.flickr.com

In the UK, Zone-Imaging provide a table, source not stated, of development times at box speed for 510 pyro they sell:

https://static1.squarespace.com/static/61e9dd3504ed6d3cbf4f5077/t/61fd85046bf8b11e9462deb8/1644004615601/510+Pyro+Technical+Sheet.pdf

Appears it was down to Hartung to show new formula 510 Pyro would give box speed but he only did it for minimal agitation.

 

[ruilourosa]

Never had issues in obtaining box speed...

But its the solvency tipe or the amount?

Is its solvency effect significant @ 2 or 1% or less concentration?

Thanks again

 

[Alan Johnson]

I only ever made one batch of 510 Pyro.
Compared to Pyrocat HD, 510 pyro produces noticeably finer grain [and less acutance].
I put this down to the difference in pH , over 11 to about 9, IDK re solvency effect of TEA .

 

[Rudeofus]

Has every developer formula described in their book been actually tested by them on at least a few films? What is the criteria for inclusion of a formula?

Probably to some extent, albeit to a much higher extent in older times. However, Bill had contacts deep into KRL and talked to many people there. Many of his statements can be traced back to interactions with these people. This may also explain, why amateur devs like PC TEA receive less attention in his books.

 

[grain elevator]

Does anyone know of any real evaluation of PC-TEA, with some densitometry? I'd love to know if I might regret something later about the negatives I'm developing in it, which seem fine (also in terms of grain, which suggests some solvency) to me, but what do I know about my future refined tastes...

 

[pentaxuser]

So it would seem,from what is being said by various posters, that Anchell and Troop have excluded those developers which they regard as inferior or otherwise less reliable? Is that a fair assumption on my part? If it is not a fair assumption then exactly what is it that causes them to exclude TEA and 510 Pyro?

It may be reasonable to state that a drawback of 510 Pyro is that it stains the reels compared to other staining developers but is this really the case?

John Finch of Pictorial Planet fame has done videos on 510 Pyro as have others and while I haven't seen all the 510 videos I have seen a few and nowhere does he even hint at the staining of the reels, nor can I recall others mentioning it. From what I have seen of his many videos he is normally very careful about covering all aspects and I'd have thought that serious staining deserved at least a mention

So is the staining such that the normal washing of the reels after the process is finished is insufficient to remove it?

Thanks

pentaxuser

 

[Raghu Kuvempunagar]

FDC 2020 p111-112 wrt TEA concludes ".....we don't like its silver solvent effect on film"

PE had this to say on the alleged silver solvent effect of TEA:

Mostly, it is just a liquid alkali useful for making liquid kits! The solvent action for Silver Halide that is attributed to it is generally due to impurities such as DEA. It is a very weak solvent and a very weak chelating agent. It is very good for making water free liquid kits such as HC110.

 

[Alan Johnson]

So it would seem,from what is being said by various posters, that Anchell and Troop have excluded those developers which they regard as inferior or otherwise less reliable? Is that a fair assumption on my part? If it is not a fair assumption then exactly what is it that causes them to exclude TEA and 510 Pyro?

It may be reasonable to state that a drawback of 510 Pyro is that it stains the reels compared to other staining developers but is this really the case?

John Finch of Pictorial Planet fame has done videos on 510 Pyro as have others and while I haven't seen all the 510 videos I have seen a few and nowhere does he even hint at the staining of the reels, nor can I recall others mentioning it. From what I have seen of his many videos he is normally very careful about covering all aspects and I'd have thought that serious staining deserved at least a mention

So is the staining such that the normal washing of the reels after the process is finished is insufficient to remove it?

Thanks

pentaxuser

IMO, Anchell and Troop did not include 510 pyro because the data was incomplete, I think it still is.
Apologies for mentioning staining of reels many years ago, not to be taken as a serious claim, I deleted it.

 

[ruilourosa]

My jobo and Paterson reels are ok!

My hands sometimes have a casual minor stain! Nothing bad...

So... PE says that its a no issue...

Anyone had issues with this solvency thing?

 

[Raghu Kuvempunagar]

Viscosity and high freezing point of 99% TEA might have been a factor that weighed against it.

 

[pentaxuser]

IMO, Anchell and Troop did not include 510 pyro because the data was incomplete, I think it still is.
Apologies for mentioning staining of reels many years ago, not to be taken as a serious claim, I deleted it.

Thanks good to know that 510 Pyro does not lead to a stain on the reels

pentaxuser

 

[Alan Johnson]

Thanks good to know that 510 Pyro does not lead to a stain on the reels

pentaxuser

I never said that. There has never been a thread comparing reel staining in pyrogallol vs pyrocatechin.

 

[ruilourosa]

I have been experimenting with rodinal and catechol and no stain in reels...

 

[Ian Grant]

510 pyro would have been a work in progress when the Film Developing Cookbook was being prepared for publication in 2020.
The formula was changed by the inventor to 0.375g phenidone and times published in 2017 on Flickr.
Too much uncertainty to be included in FDC maybe.

510 Pyro dates back to 2006, it's in the 2008 3rd edition of Steve Anchell's Darkroom Cookbook.

FDC 2020 p111-112 wrt TEA concludes ".....we don't like its silver solvent effect on film"

This is a personal comment from Troop.

Ian

 

[Alan Johnson]

The formula change and carefully measured development times for minimal agitation were not published till 2017.
The Table of times for normal agitation published in 2022 noted in post 10 has not yet had much user comment and its source is unknown. The present improved version is relatively new.

 

[ruilourosa]

Can anyone chime in about its solvency characteristics? Maybe comparing with other solvents..