what domestic product can be used as "fixer"

highliner · Mar 9, 2010

hi all!

My ilford Rapid Fixer is depleted, just 0.5 liter of working solution left (actually it is not recommended to use it, 1 week past). I will go to military service one month later and i do not want to buy fixer right now since it may pe perished when i come back. I'm a bit curious about whether i can use a domestic product instead of fixer in order to "fix". I mean, in everyhome there are bleaches, washing sodas etc. if one of them has -even very slightly- fixer effect, that would be wonderfull!

thanks for the replies already!

Mustafa

Ian Grant · Mar 9, 2010

There's no household alternative.

Your fixer should be OK it keeps a long time when diluted.

Ian

highliner · Mar 9, 2010

thanks Ian, i will use my last fixer drops

Tony Egan · Mar 9, 2010

Use the film clip test. Cut a small piece of exposed (but undeveloped) film leader and drop it into the fixer. It should start clearing within 30 seconds and be completely clear/transparent within 1 minute. I always do this test before using any stored fixer on film or paper. With 35mm film the tapered end of the roll which I cut off before loading onto the reel is perfect for such a test.

dancqu · Mar 9, 2010

Sodium thiosulfate lasts and lasts and ....
I think of it as being a dry concentrate. Dan

David A. Goldfarb · Mar 9, 2010

The original fixer was sea water. It took hours, and a lot was needed. Not sure it would work with modern emulsions.

Murray Kelly · Mar 9, 2010

Sodium thiosulphate is used in pools to lower the chlorine levels. Don't ask why one would want to, because it seems counter-intuitive to me. Public pools and the like would be the main users.
I went snooping round the local pool shop and found this crystaline stuff labeled 'Sodium thiosulphate' and asked if they could get me it in bulk. They were a bit surprised when I ordered 5Kg (11 lb) which was somewhere round AU$36 IIRC. That's about US$30 or 24.
So, there 'is' a household supply if you try hard enough!

Murray

Ian Grant · Mar 9, 2010

Murray Kelly said:
Sodium thiosulphate is used in pools to lower the chlorine levels. Don't ask why one would want to, because it seems counter-intuitive to me.

Murray

Here in Turkey the pool in our complex is dosed fairly heavily in the evening with Sodium Hypochlorite and that has to be partially neutralised the following morning, that seems to be quite a common practice.

Ian

Photo Engineer · Mar 9, 2010

David A. Goldfarb said:
The original fixer was sea water. It took hours, and a lot was needed. Not sure it would work with modern emulsions.

David;

From some information I have, I believe this to be a total myth. The NaCl in sea water would dissolve silver halides so slowly that it would be useless. This is especially true with films where the salts contain bromide and iodide.

And, plain Sodium Thiosulfate does go bad in water over about 1 month unless stabilized with sulfite.

PE

Nicholas Lindan · Mar 9, 2010

If you buy Sodium Thiosulfate crystals they will keep pretty much forever - so you don't need to worry about them going bad over a period of a few years.

If you make up your own fixer you will also need some Sodium Sulfite - also available at most swimming pool supply stores.

David A. Goldfarb · Mar 9, 2010

Photo Engineer said:
David;

From some information I have, I believe this to be a total myth. The NaCl in sea water would dissolve silver halides so slowly that it would be useless. This is especially true with films where the salts contain bromide and iodide.

Well, I'm curious. What do you suppose they were using before Herschel claimed to have discovered that thiosulfate worked as a fixer?

Ray Rogers · Mar 9, 2010

I don't think they had a satisifactory fixer until Herschel's work... (?)
but that doesn't answer your question!

both KI and NaCl had been used (different mech. I think...) Ammonia was not satisfactory.

However, the knowledge that hypo could disslove AgCl was known as early as 1819 and was actually used as a fixer as early as 1839.

Could PE (or someone) expand on the sulfite/hypo stability aspect?

Photo Engineer · Mar 9, 2010

David A. Goldfarb said:
Well, I'm curious. What do you suppose they were using before Herschel claimed to have discovered that thiosulfate worked as a fixer?

Ray is right.

There was no suitable "fixer" before Herschel. At best, they used an ammonia solution to clear some photos, but many were left to brown or "fade to brown" in one way or another. It was not until Herschel's invention became established that photography became popular.

"He discovered sodium thiosulfate to be a solvent of silver halides in 1819, and informed Talbot and Daguerre of his discovery that this "hyposulphite of soda" ("hypo") could be used as a photographic fixer, to "fix" pictures and make them permanent, after experimentally applying it thus in 1839."

From: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Herschel

So, hypo dates way back in photo history. Before that, you took your chances!

As for hypo itself, it is in equilibrium in water with a number of species and is easily oxidized. Sulfite is an antioxidant and also represses the equilibration of hypo so that it does not decompose. I would have to look up the equation but I'm sure it is in Mees or Mees and James.

PE

Ray Rogers · Mar 9, 2010

Photo Engineer said:
As for hypo itself, it is in equilibrium in water with a number of species and is easily oxidized. Sulfite is an antioxidant and also represses the equilibration of hypo so that it does not decompose. I would have to look up the equation but I'm sure it is in Mees or Mees and James.

PE

Thanks. I should be able to find the equations, if I ever get that room straightened up!

dancqu · Mar 10, 2010

Keeps For a While

Nicholas Lindan said:
If you buy Sodium Thiosulfate crystals they will keep
pretty much forever - so you don't need to worry about
them going bad over a period of a few years.

If you make up your own fixer you will also need some
Sodium Sulfite - also available at most swimming pool
supply stores.

I mix a fresh sodium fix at session time, film or paper.
The sulfite may be omitted. And that's using it very
dilute. Bottled I've had it last a few days. Dan

Steve Roberts · Mar 10, 2010

Ian Grant said:
Your fixer should be OK it keeps a long time when diluted.

Ian

That's always been my experience. I've often kept working strength fixer for many months with no problems, usually dumping it when the 'time to clear film' test gets excessively long. However, rather unusually I took a look at Ilford's paperwork when I made up some fresh fixer last weekend and was surprised to see that they that the working strength solution is only good for (relying on memory) five to seven days. Perhaps I shouldn't be surprised as they are, after all, in the business of selling fixer and as with all 'use by' dates erring well on safe side.

Steve

Anon Ymous · Mar 10, 2010

Steve, it only lasts a few days (according to them) if it's left at open trays. If the working solution is bottled, it keeps exceptionally well, as they also say the their paperwork.

ricksplace · Mar 11, 2010

I have a copy of the US Navy graflex manual c. 1945. Sea water is recommended as a hypo eliminator, to be followed by a fresh water wash.

Fanshaw · Mar 12, 2010

Many years ago when I first started to develop films I used to make fixer by dissolving sodium thiosulphate crystals in water. It worked perfectly well although it is slower than modern rapid fixers based on ammonium thiosulphate. When I heard that sodium thiosulphate was used to de-chlorinate swimming pools I thought that I was going to be able to get some cheap fixer.
To my surprise when I looked up the prices it seems that swimming pool hypo is more expensive in the UK than that sold for photographic purposes!

Murray Kelly · Mar 12, 2010

Interesting. I just rechecked the Melbourne major supplier (none here in Brisbane) and at AU$16/Kg plus pack/post it would be almost $100 for 5Kg.
$36 was a bargain. Mind you there are a lot of pool shops so competition is maybe keener?
Murray

Fanshaw said:
Many years ago when I first started to develop films I used to make fixer by dissolving sodium thiosulphate crystals in water. It worked perfectly well although it is slower than modern rapid fixers based on ammonium thiosulphate. When I heard that sodium thiosulphate was used to de-chlorinate swimming pools I thought that I was going to be able to get some cheap fixer.
To my surprise when I looked up the prices it seems that swimming pool hypo is more expensive in the UK than that sold for photographic purposes!

removed account4 · Mar 12, 2010

ricksplace said:
I have a copy of the US Navy graflex manual c. 1945. Sea water is recommended as a hypo eliminator, to be followed by a fresh water wash.

sea water is filled with salt and selenium and other good stuff.
the sulfites ( or is it sulfates ? ) pull the silver out just like perma wasy ..
i wouldn't be surprised if perma wash and other "hypo removers"
are based on sea water ...

Anon Ymous · Mar 12, 2010

I don't know how good saltwater is as a hypo clearing agent, but I'm pretty sure the navy suggested using saltwater because that's what was abundant. Fresh drinkable water on the other hand was scarce and precious.

Permawash and any other products like this (KHCA etc) are based on sodium sulfite. Sulfate would probably have the opposite result.

what domestic product can be used as "fixer"

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what domestic product can be used as "fixer"

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