Wetting agent and drying problems - 35mm

[jrong]

I've just about had enough of this!

I have been having awful problems with drying marks and was advised to use distilled water for my final wash. This worked OK for me until I just washed 35mm Fuji Acros film, and found the most awful drying marks and spots (dust?) all over my negs when I tried to scan them. I was informed that I had to reduce the dilution of wetting agent (I use Ilfoflo) and then try again. I had already cut the negs into strips of 6 frames by this time in order to scan them. So I rewashed the negs to see if it would help.

It was a little hard to hang and dry small strips of negs, but I managed to clip it and let it dry vertically. There's always droplets of water on the negs no matter what I do.

The dust or water spots are awful - even after the rewash. It's not easily visible on the negative but when scanned, it looks like there are lots of tiny snowflakes everywhere! I'm completely at a loss as to how to recover my negs now.... does anyone have any good ideas?

Jin

 

[agGNOME]

You should be able to recover your neg.s without a problem. Do you have a scan to demonstrate the spots? From there someone can tell you if it's dust or water spots. Never used Ilfoflo, but it can't be any different from most wetting agents. Are you using some sort of squeegee? How are you drying them...in an enclosed area/cabinet?

 

[jrong]

Hey there, thanks for replying.

I am just using my (damp) fingers as a squeegee to remove excess water from the negs. Even so there'll always be a streak or little droplets that remain on the neg as it dries. I usually hang my negs in the shower and although it isn't ideal, I don't usually have such bad dust/marks on my negatives.

It does appear as if the marks are embedded in the surface of the emulsion. Am wondering whether you'd recommend isopropanol as a solvent to clean the neg surface with?

Jin

 

[Early Riser]

Jin, using distilled water is critical. I also use about half the reccommended dilution of wetting agent, photo flo. I also add a small amount of 91% Isopropyl alcohol which seems to speed the drying time. Also photo flo, and any similar wetting agent, should be dumped after a day or so because it starts to grow stuff inside.

My water is also double fitered and softened which really helps prevent spots, if you can't do the same then I suggest that the last rinse or two before wetting agent also be done with distilled water. Let the film sit in the distilled water and agitate, that should should help dilute and release some of the existing minerals clinging to the film before wetting agent. As for squeegeeing the film, I use the Jobo film squeegee. I used to use my fingers but the Jobo does a much better job. I make sure that the film has been in wetting agent sufficiently before I use the squeegee, and I always check the squeegee to make certain that nothing is stuck to it and I have never scratched a negative with it.

As for cleaning the negative surface I use PEC 12 film cleaner and PEC pads. They will not however remove water soluble mineral marks, only water will do that.

 

[mmcclellan]

Jin,

Indeed, distilled water is critical. The amount of wetting agent (Photo-Flo?) you add to the water should be very small -- just a few drops in a liter, at the most. Soak the film for at least 30 seconds (more won't hurt). If it is roll film on reels, I shake the reel while the film is still loaded over a sink but do NOT squeegee at all -- not with fingers, not with wipers, not with sponges. Just hang up the wet film in a dry area with no air movement and leave it until dry. I usually just hang it in the bathroom and close the door with no fans on and it works fine.

If you are not in a rush, the slow drying will work great and you should have no spots. I also do not re-use the water with wetting agent beyond one developing session -- just toss it at the end of the day.

With sheet film, I soak the same way and then just hang them up to drip dry with clothespins, with no wiping at all.

 

[FrankB]

I don't find that distilled water is necessary.

I live in a hard-water area. My film processing, washing and wetting water comes from the tap, is mixed for temperature in the sink and then put through a jug filter before being mixed with the process chems. I use Ilfotol as a wetting agent and use a few drops of it (measured by eye) to 300ml of water for each film.

My film used to be covered in drying marks and calcium carbonate spots but, since introducing the filter and the Ilfotol, it's been fine.

Top tip - To hang up a 35mm film strip without a leader, bend the long end of a paper clip out a little way, attach the clip to the line and feed the long end through a convenient sprocket hole. You can attach a weight to the bottom in a similar way if you feel it's necessary (note - too heavy a weight will tear out through the sprocket hole!).

You can also stand a short 35mm film strip (6 shots or so) on its edge, which means the water has less distance to run to be clear of the image...

 

[reellis67]

I find that when my film dries quickly it gets water spots, but when I slow the process I have no problems with spots. I don't use distilled water for any part of the process except for mixing powdered chemicals.

Try this and see if it helps any.

Dilute your wetting agent 1:400 and let the film sit for 30 seconds or so. I usualy lift mine once or twice before removing the reel for unwinding just to be sure it is coated.

When you hang your film to dry, run the shower for 2-3 minutes to get it nice and steamy. Hang your film in the shower and close the bathroom door so that the room slowly cools. This should wet all the dust in the air and slow down the drying process so that the water can sheet off without drying too quickly.

I would strongly recommend against wiping the film with your fingers. First, it speeds the drying process which can increase your chances of spots. Second, all it takes is one small rough spot on your fingers and you get nice, long lines down the length of the film.

This process works for me...

- Randy

 

[Early Riser]

I have to disagree with those who are against wiping or squeegeeing film. What causes most water marks is an accumulation of minerals in the water, the more water sitting on your film, the more minerals. Whether the film dries fast or slow the quantity of minerals is unchanged. By wiping your film you remove a huge amount of water and that water and it's inherent minerals won't be there to dry on your film. Less water equals less minerals, less minerals means less spots.

 

[markinlondon]

Jin,

following the advice on RFF when you posted this question there I've now cracked it (for me, that is). I'm using a plant mister bottle filled with deionised water and 1:200 Kodak photo-flo (yes I know, but my drying marks got worse with Ilfotol and I threw it out in frustration). Hang up at end of wash, quick spray, gentle wipe down with wet fingers to spread over surface and walk away. Five rolls now without so much as a spot or streak. I just hang vertically in my darkroom doorway on weighted clips.
I also noticed I was getting muddy prints from previous rolls even when I couldn't see spotting or streaking, so rewashed those negs in a small tray with photo-flo solution as above and they print as well as my pictures ever do. I think I was getting some really bad scummy deposits out of the tap water drying before it could run off due to a heated house with low humidity. The price of photo-flo in deionised water is a bit steep, but the spray bottle allows minimal usage (about 25ml or so per roll).

Mark

 

[reellis67]

EarlyRiser, my opinion is based on the results that I have gotten personaly. I understand your logic regarding this issue, but I feel that for me, the high risk of scratching does not justify a slightly longer drying time, especialy since I have never had problems with spotting using my method. As always, it is best to go with what works for you personaly.

- Randy

 

[pentaxuser]

I've just about had enough of this!

I have been having awful problems with drying marks and was advised to use distilled water for my final wash. This worked OK for me until I just washed 35mm Fuji Acros film, and found the most awful drying marks and spots (dust?) all over my negs when I tried to scan them. I was informed that I had to reduce the dilution of wetting agent (I use Ilfoflo) and then try again. I had already cut the negs into strips of 6 frames by this time in order to scan them. So I rewashed the negs to see if it would help.

It was a little hard to hang and dry small strips of negs, but I managed to clip it and let it dry vertically. There's always droplets of water on the negs no matter what I do.

The dust or water spots are awful - even after the rewash. It's not easily visible on the negative but when scanned, it looks like there are lots of tiny snowflakes everywhere! I'm completely at a loss as to how to recover my negs now.... does anyone have any good ideas?

Jin

Hi, I don't know if you have looked at another recent thread " To squeegee or not to squeegee" but that one covered almost the same content as this.

You'll get the " I always use distilled water/ never used distilled water and no problems" spectrum of replies. It's a bit like the Jasper Carrott joke about killing a mole. There was only ever one way to kill a mole. The trouble was they were all different! It's very frustrating I know.

The real problem is that no-one can exactly replicate the conditions in your process but if a number of subscribers say that they have never had a problem with say Wetting Agent and then a squeegee and hanging somewhere dust free then it indicates that this works and your problems may be peculiar to conditions prevailing at the time.

If this is the first instance of an issue in an otherwise satisfactory process then something must have changed. Does the quality of water change in the London area in terms of particulates. If it does then filtered water or distilled water for the final rinse may be sensible way which is what you seem to follow.

If may be helpful if another Londoner can reply but even then he/she may not have processed at that time or something may have happened to the water in your area at that particular time which didn't happen elsewhere in the London area.

All I can say is that I live in a fairly hard water area( Anglian Water in S Northants) where we get limescale forming on the end of taps from the rising main and I have never experienced such problems. I use Ilford Wetting Agent diluted according to instructions with tap water and have processed Fuji Acros amongst others. I use a Jobo film squeegee and then hang in a drying cabinet with a couple on minutes of warm air then simply ambient blown air.

I can see no obvious flaw in what you do which makes me wonder about the water except that I would have expected distilled water in sufficient quantity to have washed away anything from the film. I do know that wet film attracts dust and particles in the air around it like flypaper so may be you need to look at the drying area. A drying cabinet such as the Durst UT100 may be a worthwhile investment if you narrow down the problems to this area.Drying marks occurred once on a B&W college course caused by me foolishly putting a loop in the film to take up less space in the communal cabinet. It was easily rectified by dunking in the communal and much used wetting solution tank for a minute then squeegeed with fingers and place back in the cabinet without any loop.

Amongst my fellow students( some 35 in total) I never heard of any saying that a fresh dunk for a minute or two in the wetting agent failed to remove marks. Dust tended not to be a problem due to a drying cabinet.

I hope you get to the bottom of it.

Pentaxuser

 

[Derek Lofgreen]

Jin,
I had the same problem. I started the "To squeegee or not to squeegee" thread. I found that using filtered water solved my problem. I also noticed that different films seemed to shed less water than others.

Could the dust problem be your scanner and not your film? I know I have waaaaay more dust when I scan than when I print with my enlarger. One thing I have learned that helps keep dust off scanners and film is this: Take a synthetic artist paint brush (I use the white bristled ones) clean it very well with water to remove the oil that manufacturers put in it. Let it dry, then take a can of air and spray the air through the bristles of the brush, this creates a static charge on the brush that dust will stick to. It works great.

Good luck
D.

 

[Early Riser]

EarlyRiser, my opinion is based on the results that I have gotten personaly. I understand your logic regarding this issue, but I feel that for me, the high risk of scratching does not justify a slightly longer drying time, especialy since I have never had problems with spotting using my method. As always, it is best to go with what works for you personaly.

- Randy

Randy, if you're not having problems then don't change what you're doing. However Jin is having problems so i made suggestions to him. I process about 400 rolls a year for about 6 years now, and processing B&W film in lesser quantity for another 25 years before that. I've never had a scratch from the Jobo film squeegee and have never had any drying marks since I have used this procedure.

 

[Larry L]

I find that when my film dries quickly it gets water spots, but when I slow the process I have no problems with spots. I don't use distilled water for any part of the process except for mixing powdered chemicals.

Try this and see if it helps any.

Dilute your wetting agent 1:400 and let the film sit for 30 seconds or so. I usualy lift mine once or twice before removing the reel for unwinding just to be sure it is coated.

When you hang your film to dry, run the shower for 2-3 minutes to get it nice and steamy. Hang your film in the shower and close the bathroom door so that the room slowly cools. This should wet all the dust in the air and slow down the drying process so that the water can sheet off without drying too quickly.

I would strongly recommend against wiping the film with your fingers. First, it speeds the drying process which can increase your chances of spots. Second, all it takes is one small rough spot on your fingers and you get nice, long lines down the length of the film.

This process works for me...

- Randy

I copied Randy's description because I evolved to this technique many years ago as well. Early on I did have problems with spotting as you indicate and found I was using way too much Kodak Photoflo. About 3-5 drops in 800 ml of water is my normal concentration followed by soaking the film for 30-90 seconds with a couple very light agitations - if you start getting a foam on top it's too agressive. If 35 mm or 120 film I shake the reel vigorously before removing the film. I hang the strip vertically with the leader on the bottom using a film clip at the top and a clothes pin to weight the bottom. I intentionally leave a lot of leader on the film and always hang it on the bottom. Any spots I do get always end up in the leader - which is very very rare. My 4 X 5 film is done the same way but I hang at the corner with the opposite corner vertically below. After about 20 minutes in a no draft area I return and dab the water droplet at the bottom corner off. It's been over 20 years since I've had a noticable water spot and this goes across two different cities and three different darkrooms. My present house does have a water softener - which does seem to be help as a small amount of Photoflo appears to create foam very easily.

Larry

 

[fschifano]

There is a trick to using any wetting agent effectively. You need to use just enough to prevent the water from beading up on the film and no more. Just how much wetting agent is highly dependent on your water supply, so some experimentation is in order until you have the dilution ratio fine tuned for your water supply. I don't use distilled water for anything, but I do filter tap water through a 1 micron canister type carbon filter before use. My usual dilution for Kodak's Photoflo is 1+400. One hundred fifty ml. of clear rubbing alcohol, 850 ml. of filtered water, and 2.5 ml. of Photoflo does the trick. Not only does the alcohol speed drying a bit, it also acts as a preservative and prevents the bacterial growth that likes to contaminate aging Photoflo.

Do check your drying environment and make sure that it is clean as in you can eat off the floor clean. Floors should not have carpeting and should be damp mopped regularly. All surfaces that can collect dust should be wiped down with a damp cloth regularly. Finally, it is advisable to keep the relative humidity a little on the high side. Any airborne dust that lands on your film while wet will stick. Once dried, it becomes difficult and often impossible to remove without damaging the emulsion.

 

[jrong]

Thanks a LOT for all these thoughtful responses. I've had a little time to think them through, and I can definitely say that the dust spots cannot be from my scanner, because (1) I can see a lot of the specks on the neg through a loupe (2) I have scanned other 35mm negs with the same scanner without the same problem.

My main concern is now salvaging these hopelessly spotty and dusty negatives... I tried soaking a strip last night in a small bowl containing distilled water and a touch of Ilfoflo. After soaking for 1 min and rubbing the surface lightly with my fingers, I found I was able to dislodge some of the tiny strands of dust that had stuck onto the negative (resembling scratches when scanned). I hung this up in my shower cabinet (which is probably the least dusty place in my home!) and tried to squeegee off excess fluid with my fingers, but when it was dry, I still noticed a residue left by the water - even distilled water! Is it possible that the water just gathers minute particles of dust and deposits them when it dries? So re-washing just seems to move the dust around.

I seem to have worse problems with Acros than with other emulsions; it could be entirely coincidental (as I often shoot Acros) but I have no problems whatsoever with 120 film, and often very bad problems with Acros - but this is the worst case so far. I'd like to be able to salvage my negatives without causing further damage... but I'm at a loss now.

Jin

 

[jrong]

Forgot to mention that I have a sample of one of the "spotty" photos, I tried to touch it up with the clone tool in PS but there was so much to do that I just gave up.

Is there a way to salvage my negatives?

I'd be eternally grateful!

Jin

 

[Edwardv]

After I wash my film I soak and agitate in distilled water two times for 1 minute each and 30-45 seconds in Photo Flo mixed with distilled water.

 

[fschifano]

That looks like water spots and dust to me, so you have two problems going on here.

 

[Steve Roberts]

All I can say is that I live in a fairly hard water area( Anglian Water in S Northants) where we get limescale forming on the end of taps from the rising main and I have never experienced such problems.

I have quite the opposite - probably the softest water in the country and endless suds if a block of soap is even in the same room. I've never used filtered or distilled water but when the film has finished washing I put the minutest drop of wetting agent (anyone remember Johnson's 326?) into the tank, scrunge the reel around, shake off the excess and hang up to dry. I think as has been said, the secret is in using the minimum amount of wetting agent that will do the job.

Steve

 

[jrong]

I read on Photo.net that it could also be silver particulates in the re-used fixer? This fixer I used was almost 2 weeks old and had 2 rolls of film developed in it already.... but then the marks on the negs do look like water marks and dust instead.

I guess this is going to be difficult to shift even with multiple re-washes?

Jin

 

[pauldc]

I found using a one shot fresh fix mixed with distilled water made a huge difference to reducing the white spots on my negs.

I solved the water drying marks by doing the last 2 washes in distilled water and then using a home made dryer.

This is basically a 50cm long piece of drain pipe. I drilled a couple of holes in the bottom and put dowling through this. I drop the negatives in whilst still on the spiral straight from the distilled water wash. The dowling stops them falling out the bottom. Then I pop my partners hairdryer at the top of the tube and give the reel a 20 minute blow dry. Magic - makes all the difference.

I used tap water for everything else and I live in Bexley with horribly hard water.

Now I have nice clean negs (they scan very clean) but of course once I start printing I always seem to attract a few bits of dust in the darkroom but that is a different story...

 

[Early Riser]

Jin, if you are using old fix that could be the problem. What I do, and just makes sense anyway, is that I always use a 2 bath fix for my T-max negatives. I use rapid fix, the first bath for 3 minutes, then I replace it with a 2nd rapid fix bath for 2 minutes. I also test the first fix bath after and if hypo check indicates silver saturation I dump it and then pour the contents from the 2nd fix into the bottle for the first fix. Then fresh fix is mixed and put into the second bottle. This way the film is always getting effective fixing, and the second fix will dissolve any silver that might have been floating in the first fix bath.

I read on Photo.net that it could also be silver particulates in the re-used fixer? This fixer I used was almost 2 weeks old and had 2 rolls of film developed in it already.... but then the marks on the negs do look like water marks and dust instead.

I guess this is going to be difficult to shift even with multiple re-washes?

Jin

 

[pmu]

Yesterday I developed one T-max 100 roll. The film was totally covered with "dust" -- It looked like dust, but it most definitely was not dust attached to the film while it was drying. I rolled the film back to the reel, rinsed couple of minutes and did final rinse with wetting agent and gently put it on my homemade drying "cabinet". The result; negative still dusty! Ok, could it be in the fixer -- let's fix it again. And again that same rinsing and wetting agent stuff...the result: still dust all over the film! Ok, one final trick; I took the film, took water and normal handsoap and literally washed the film, I rubbed the whole film with soap water in my hands. The result: totally clean negative, no "dust" anymore. But why did this happen? Why this kind of problem? The film was totally new, straight from the box.

 

[Daniel Lawton]

One little trick I learned that has virtually cured water marks for me is to hang the film on a diagonal. Find a vacant doorway that is far away from foot traffic and thumbtack one end in an upper corner and the other end down on the far side of the doorway. Doing this causes the water to drain down and along the edge of the film strip rather than streaking along the entire roll hitting every image area along the way. When hung vertically, some of the water will dry up before it reaches the bottom thus leaving spots. Hanging at an angle allows the water to travel away from the image area as quick as possible and then flow along the bottom edge. Using a wetting agent and this method works well for me.