Vinegar Stop Bath

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johndeere

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Since some places will not ship stop bath anymore I have been searching for a good alternative. I know that vinegar can make a good stop bath. However I’m not sure of the correct mixture or even if it makes that much of a difference for a working stop bath. I did read in another thread that someone thought that 1 part vinegar and 3 parts water would work. Any advice on the correct mixture?
 

johnnywalker

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For paper, I use 1 part white vinegar, 4 parts water, to make a 1 per cent solution. For film I've stopped using fixer and just use a couple of minute water rinse. I read "somewhere" that 1 % was the right amount.
 

Frank Pouw

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what I use

I got this off the web but don't remember what site:

280 ml 5% vinegar
720 ml water
=1 liter paper stop bath
 

Bruce Osgood

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johndeere said:
Since some places will not ship stop bath anymore I have been searching for a good alternative. I know that vinegar can make a good stop bath. However I’m not sure of the correct mixture or even if it makes that much of a difference for a working stop bath. I did read in another thread that someone thought that 1 part vinegar and 3 parts water would work. Any advice on the correct mixture?

Yes 1 + 3 (= 1:4). White distilled vineger only, 5% Acidity -- not cider or balsamic or any of the exotics. I've been doing this for a couple of years only to find out commercial stop bath (KISB) is cheaper, but in your case if you have to pay a shipping cost for a liquid that is basically water there probably is no savings.
 

garryl

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[Yes 1 + 3 (= 1:4). White distilled vineger only, 5% Acidity -- not cider or balsamic or any of the exotics.]

An let me be the first to ask- why not? What would be wrong in using other vinegars? :confused:
 

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garryl said:
[Yes 1 + 3 (= 1:4). White distilled vineger only, 5% Acidity -- not cider or balsamic or any of the exotics.]

An let me be the first to ask- why not? What would be wrong in using other vinegars? :confused:
Depending on the source of the vinegar, some vary in acidity and some can stain your prints. White vinegar is a safe bet.
 

garryl

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AH! But has anyone really tried them or is this just something passed down from an ancient ,but unknown, source?
 

john_s

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If you've ever tasted (or even seen) fine balsamic or sherry vinegar, you will know that there's a lot more in them than water and acetic acid. Most of these flavour and colour components (the result of a long process that makes the products relatively expensive) are unlikely to improve your prints or negs, unless you're going for a novel toning process.
 

Tom Hoskinson

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garryl said:
AH! But has anyone really tried them or is this just something passed down from an ancient ,but unknown, source?

Yep! And Yep!

BTW, acetic acid is what gives a wet darkroom its authentic odor.

Pay no attention to my wife, it is not my socks!
 

Nick Zentena

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Check the label for the level of acid. Locally the also sell 7% vinegar. You'd use less of that then 5%.
 

psvensson

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I'd go for boric acid from the drugstore. It's about $4 for half a pound and doesn't smell. I use about a tablespoon for 1.5 liters of water.
 

aldevo

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Not using fixer!? What the ?!

johnnywalker said:
For paper, I use 1 part white vinegar, 4 parts water, to make a 1 per cent solution. For film I've stopped using fixer and just use a couple of minute water rinse. I read "somewhere" that 1 % was the right amount.

Stopped using fixer and replaced it with plain water?

I didn't know that it was possible to fix your negs with plain water.

I heard once that it was possible to fix your negs with sea water though it would take a long time to do so.
 

garryl

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aldevo said:
Stopped using fixer and replaced it with plain water?

I didn't know that it was possible to fix your negs with plain water.

I heard once that it was possible to fix your negs with sea water though it would take a long time to do so.

Back in the beginnings of photography, salt was used as the fixer(1850's). It was Sir John Herschel that suggested that we switch to Sodium Hyposulfite
as being faster and better.
 

modafoto

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Jorge said:
Depending on the source of the vinegar, some vary in acidity and some can stain your prints. White vinegar is a safe bet.

Use balsamic vinegar and you'll get red stain on your prints. It may be nice... :tongue:
 

Donald Qualls

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garryl said:
Back in the beginnings of photography, salt was used as the fixer(1850's). It was Sir John Herschel that suggested that we switch to Sodium Hyposulfite
as being faster and better.

Herschel suggested that method, as I recall, because Fox Talbot was complaining that his calotype negatives and prints turned dark over time, no matter how long he soaked them in the salt water. Herschel "fixed" them in a matter of minutes with the hypo solution and, as they say, the rest is photographic history.

Salt water is *not* an effective fixer, even with very long soak times -- neither sodium chloride solution nor sea water. Sodium sulfite will (eventually) fix a negative, but it has extremely low capacity (likely to require 4-5 changes of solution for a roll of film) and takes literally days (2-3 days with the above changes of solution) to work. Most, if not all of the other substances that will complex and dissolve silver halide crystals (thiocyanates, for instance) will also attack the image silver, resulting in bleaching (thiosulfate bleaches a little in an acidic solution, but not enough to notice or even measure in a reasonable fixing time). There's a good reason we're still using thiosulfate fixers after more than 150 years.
 

aldevo

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I thought, however, that experiments had been performed nearly a century ago that suggested sea water could be used for adequate fixing. I did a brief search on the Web and didn't turn up anything to refute the earlier research - is there a specific study you can refer me to?

Is it because sea water contains a trace of Potassium salt? Just thinking out loud...
 

Tom Hoskinson

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aldevo said:
I thought, however, that experiments had been performed nearly a century ago that suggested sea water could be used for adequate fixing. I did a brief search on the Web and didn't turn up anything to refute the earlier research - is there a specific study you can refer me to?

Is it because sea water contains a trace of Potassium salt? Just thinking out loud...

Sea water contains many different salts - including sodium, potassium, calcium, magnesium, etc, etc.

Get yourself some sea water and try it.
 

lee

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wouldnt sea water be better as a hypo eleminator? I use sodium sulfite as a hypo eleminator for film and paper.

lee\c
 

johnnywalker

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aldevo said:
Stopped using fixer and replaced it with plain water?

I didn't know that it was possible to fix your negs with plain water.

I heard once that it was possible to fix your negs with sea water though it would take a long time to do so.


Neuron misfire on my part. I should have said stop bath, not fixer. Sorry.
 

Tom Hoskinson

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lee said:
wouldnt sea water be better as a hypo eleminator? I use sodium sulfite as a hypo eleminator for film and paper.

lee\c

Sea water, used not as a hypo eliminator, but as a post fixing washing aid or clearing agent works very well - at least that's what the US Navy concluded - and the manufacturers of Permawash, plus others.

Kodak Hypo Clearing Aid (HCA) is mostly sodium sulfite.

Hypo eliminators are typically based on hydrogen peroxide. Kodak HE-1 is an example.

For fiber based paper, Kodak currently recommends the use of Kodak HCA (not HE-1) after fixing, followed by a normal water wash.
 

lee

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Tom Hoskinson said:
Sea water, used not as a hypo eliminator, but as a post fixing washing aid or clearing agent works very well - at least that's what the US Navy concluded - and the manufacturers of Permawash, plus others.

Kodak Hypo Clearing Aid (HCA) is mostly sodium sulfite.

Hypo eliminators are typically based on hydrogen peroxide. Kodak HE-1 is an example.

For fiber based paper, Kodak currently recommends the use of Kodak HCA (not HE-1) after fixing, followed by a normal water wash.


Sorry my mis-use of hypo eliminator when I meant HCA. Thanks for correcting that Tom

lee\c
 
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