Undesired yellowing of paper

[Thomas Bertilsson]

Hi all,

I had something happening to me that I had not seen in my prints before. I'm working my way through my last box of Agfa RC 8x10 paper.
They were processed in Kodak Polymax T (had some around that needed to get used up), and fixed in Photo Formulary TF-4 alkaline fixer. I washed the prints for a good sixty minutes in running water.
Then I took them out to dry, first face up, then face down on nylon screen material. Next day when I took a look at the prints they had developed this nasty yellow tone to them that wasn't there before they dried.

The yellow is more pronounced towards the edges of the paper, for which I'm grateful, as I use one paper size too large when I print. 5x7 on 8x10 paper and so on.

A couple of circumstances that are unique right now:
1. Tap water has more chemistry in it now than usual because the water level in the river is very low. No, I don't have a filtration system or water softener.
2. It's a combination of chemistry I have never used before.
3. I've never had this happen before.

Any ideas? This has me puzzled.

- Thom

 

[lowellh]

Usually, when the paper yellows, it is because it was not washed correctly. It is not "river water" or chemistry or washing for 60 minutes, way too long btw. What happens is the residual "thio sulfate" breaks down as it ages and leaves sulfur.

 

[Christopher Colley]

If it is agfa MCP 310 RC glossy 8x10, I went through 800 sheets of that (oh how I will miss it!) and I always washed for only 5 minutes and prints from over 1 year ago have not yellowed.

I used Ilford PQ 1+9 mixed with city tap water and dektol 1+3 with same water..

 

[Thomas Bertilsson]

So it's something wrong with my procedure rather than a problem with paper, water, or chemistry?
It's just curious because I always washed paper like this, and never had a problem for (coming up on) five years until now.

I'll try to wash the prints out better next time.

- Thom

 

[Jorge]

So it's something wrong with my procedure rather than a problem with paper, water, or chemistry?
It's just curious because I always washed paper like this, and never had a problem for (coming up on) five years until now.

I'll try to wash the prints out better next time.

- Thom

Have you checked your fixer is not exhausted? This could also lead to staining. A 60 minute wash seems more than adequate to me, specially with RC paper.

 

[Thomas Bertilsson]

Have you checked your fixer is not exhausted? This could also lead to staining. A 60 minute wash seems more than adequate to me, specially with RC paper.

Yeah, it was actually fresh fixer. Granted, I had run two rolls of film through it (I normally keep them separate), but that shouldn't do any harm. I did the film strip test before fixing, and it cleared in about 30 seconds.

Thanks for the suggestion.

- Thom

 

[Dave Miller]

R/C prints do not need washing for more than 5 min, I normally wash them for half that, much longer is a waste of water. However I think your problem is exhausted fixer.

 

[Thomas Bertilsson]

I'll test the fixer when I get back home after work today, but it would royally surprise me if it wasn't good. I mixed it three days ago with distilled water, and have run 2 rolls of film, and maybe 20 8x10 papers through it. Dave, I know you're very skilled, not saying you're wrong. I just find it hard to believe, is all. I'll let you know after I test the fixer.

Just out of curiosity, does it happen that fixer can be bad even before it's mixed?

- Thom

 

[Dave Miller]

It's unlikely that the fixer will go off before it's mixed, but it is not a good idea to keep working strength chemicals too long. How long is too long? Some say 24 hours, others a week; and I dare say some will claim that they are ok for months.
The fact that you have developed a couple of films in the stuff suggests that it was ok when fresh.

 

[Gerald Koch]

What kind of film were the two rolls that you ran through the fixer -- were they T-grain/Delta films?

 

[Thomas Bertilsson]

What kind of film were the two rolls that you ran through the fixer -- were they T-grain/Delta films?

It was Kodak TMX, so yes, they were T-grain films.

 

[Thomas Bertilsson]

It's unlikely that the fixer will go off before it's mixed, but it is not a good idea to keep working strength chemicals too long. How long is too long? Some say 24 hours, others a week; and I dare say some will claim that they are ok for months.
The fact that you have developed a couple of films in the stuff suggests that it was ok when fresh.

Dave, thank you for all your help and suggestions. I have used TF-4 in the past up to one month after mixing it, and it cleared a strip of film as quickly as the day I mixed it. I keep track of that. Usually when TF-4 stops clearing film in a minute or less I discard it. Has worked like a charm up until now.

I suppose we won't find out until I test the fixer this evening...

- Thom

 

[Gerald Koch]

T-max/Delta films release a lot of iodide into fixers which can cause problems for materials put through the fixer afterwards. I would suggest redoing the prints with fresh fixer to see if this remedies the situation.

 

[reellis67]

I use TF-4 for up to three months after mixing and it always tests out fine with the chemical tester from Edwal. My film test strips also clear well and only show signs of taking longer to clear right at the end of the three month run (and I do dump it regardless of the clearing time after that by the way). The Formulary list only that the stock solution should not be kept for more than 12 months - nothing about how long the working solution should last other than a very conservative capacity of 30 sheets of 8x10 fiber paper (or 100 RC). I would think that with a long wash like that with RC paper you've washed fixer deep into the paper where it can't get out since you mentioned it is worse along the edges. Not having seen this myself, I can only speculate though, so take it for what it's worth.

- Randy

 

[Thomas Bertilsson]

Well, I suppose everything doesn't work as it should every single time. I think I'll follow Gerald's advice and mix some more fixer along with making some more prints.

Thanks everyone for your contributions. This really is the place to get sound advice like this, unbiased.

- Thom

 

[David A. Goldfarb]

Just to concur--I use TF-4 and I keep separate batches for film and for paper. Film releases all kinds of things like sensitization and anti-halation dyes that I wouldn't want in my fixer for prints. I usually discard print fixer at the end of the session.

60 min, as Dave says, is way too long for RC prints, and can cause problems at the edges of the print.

 

[Thomas Bertilsson]

I think I'll have to stop using RC paper, as I have my darkroom about a 45 minute drive from my house. I don't have room in the darkroom to dry the prints, so they have to remain wet until I get home. So I really don't have a choice in regards to the time the prints are in water. This is after they're washed.

Any suggestions in regards to that?

What's funny is that I've processed RC paper this very same way for five years, and never had a problem until now.

This is getting confusing now. They were all perfectly white until they were laid out to dry on the screens. I had some fiber prints, one batch of the Perfecta paper from Fine Art Photo Supply, and one batch of two different grades of Kentmere Bromide. Those prints were perfectly fine. Slight warm tone with the Bromide and slight cold tone with the Perfecta.

I work with building management systems for a living and this is what I would call a squirrel in the wires.

I still think Gerald's advice stands. New fresh fixer, new prints, same paper, same method, but cat back on washing time as much as possible.

I'd be very interested in opinions on how to transport wet prints.

- Thom

 

[catem]

I'd be very interested in opinions on how to transport wet prints.

- Thom

Many's the time I've had to transport prints for washing at home - thankfully no more.

The advice of the person I learnt from (who was very archivally minded) was for FB prints to wash for 40 mins min. then transport in a used black bag that you get your paper in, put straight in from the water with a little extra..(it's important not to let them dry out). Then when you get home, put them all in a big tray - let them get thoroughly wet so they come out of the bag and separate from each other of 'their own accord' - resist the temptation to give them a 'helping hand' - then wash as if from the beginning....I never had any problem in years of doing it this way (except I think I did try to peel them apart the first time and lost a print that way)...

so with RC I suppose I would wash for a few mins, transport wet, and then repeat full wash at home. But I'm a bit out of touch with what's best for RC and recommended wash times seem a lot less than they used to be (I used to wash RC for about 15-20 mins which is thought long I think now but I never had any problems)

Cate

 

[fschifano]

I'm thinking that extended wet time is the culprit here. Because you are seeing the stain only around the edges of the print, the most logical explaination is that the chemistry is penetrating into the support through the edges where it can't easily be washed out. You're not leaving your prints in the fixing tray longer than necessary are you?

Sixty minutes is far too long to be washing RC papers. Five minutes, and sometimes less, is sufficient to do the job. Many, if not all RC paper manufacturers specifically warn againt extended wet times for these materials.

 

[dancqu]

I give RC a 1 and a 2 and a 3 minute wash. Some
what the same as Ilford's 5, 10, 20 inversions film
wash. A little room temperature water in a tray with
changes and the print is ready for sponging. Dan

 

[Bob F.]

You really don't need more than a few mins wash with RC - the edges will often start to de-laminate after 15 mins or so. Once washed, squeegee and pop them in a Paterson drying rack and they will be dry in 10 minutes - help them along with a hair dryer if you want to speed it up even more. No need to transport while wet.

Interesting. The fact that they changed from white to yellow while drying suggests something in the paper oxidized while they were on the screens. I would suggest the screen my be contaminated but then you would probably see a pattern of the mesh on the prints so it's probably not that... Odd - let us know how the fixer test comes out. Might be worth processing a different brand of paper through the chemicals and see how that comes out to eliminate the possibility of a problem with the paper batch.

Good luck, Bob.

 

[Thomas Bertilsson]

Some interesting viewpoints here. Unfortunately I didn't have time to test the fixer yesterday as I had wanted, life got in the way. I'll see if I get a chance this evening.

There are a lot of variables here. Here's what I'll do:

1. Mix fresh fixer. (even though I'll test the fixer used in the bad batch).
2. Make new prints from same paper batch, and one other.
3. Wash only for the necessary 5 minutes.
4. Dry them in place.
5. Hope for the best.

It's all easy enough to do, and now the temperature in the darkroom ought to be down to 85*F, so it'll be sheer pleasure compared to last weekend when this all happened.

Thanks everybody for your help.

I'll let you know how it goes. Here is one of the images that got weird:

(there was a url link here which no longer exists)

- Thom

 

[lowellh]

Are you using Indicating Stop Bath? I have seen, on rare occassion, when the Indicationg Stop is mixed too strong a yellow-orange staining of the papers.

 

[Thomas Bertilsson]

No, I don't use a stop bath at all. Just plain water. Since my fixer is alkaline, it would be detremental to the pH. It's also not needed.

- Thom

 

[Thomas Bertilsson]

Well, by golly, the fixer clears a film strip in roughly 19 seconds. I think either the fixer is contaminated somehow (like Gerald suggested, after fixing T-grain films), or it's in the washing, and I'm inclined to believe the much too long washing time is the culprit.

Thanks again, everyone.

- Thom