Tri-X

[Huck]

I developed Tri-X 120 in HC110, solution B. I am getting a sort of pink, almost red tone on my negatives. Is this normal? or something is not done right?
Can anyone tell me how to cure this problem?

 

[Michael W]

It's probably the dye which is also in Tmax and has been in Tri-X for the last few years. If the film is well fixed and washed it won't be there. You can try re-fixing that film for a bit longer.

 

[Tom1956]

I was thinking the same thing. T-max. You have to pre-soak it before development and be sure to fix the heck out of it afterwards. Yes, you have to pre-soak it. I said that and stick by it.

 

[pgomena]

If you are using an acid fixer, rapid fix, etc., good, fresh hypo clearing agent will help get the pink out, too. A longer wash helps as well.

 

[Truzi]

I had run into it and found a number of threads here on APUG. For me, extending my fixing time helped a lot, with a good wash, as stated above.

 

[Kevin Caulfield]

I reckon give it two more minutes in the fixer.

 

[Jeff Kubach]

I would also give 2 more minutes if not longer.

Jeff

 

[Doremus Scudder]

There are numerous threads about this already with tons of good (and authoritative) information.

The pink is from a sensitizing dye. A pre-soak will not hurt, but not influence the way the pink is removed.

Extra fixing time in fresh fixer is the best solution to the problem. If extended times in the fix don't get rid of the pink, then your fixer is likely exhausted. Mix new and refix. Extended fixing times for film are not a problem as long as they are not excessive, since the film base does not absorb any fixer.

Also, it is important to use an ammonium thiosulfate (e.g. Rapid Fix) fixer, not a conventional fixer.

Don't use hypo-clear if you use staining developers.

FWIW, I fix Tri-X in Ilford Rapid Fix for six minutes and then wash for 30 minutes; no pink stain.

A bit of the pink stain will not hurt your negatives.

Best,

Doremus

 

[Richard S. (rich815)]

A bit of the pink stain will not hurt your negatives.

Exactly. Why do people freak out about this?

 

[PhotoJim]

How long are you fixing, and what fixer (sodium thiosulfate or ammonium thiosulfate) are you using?

Extending wash time often helps with this - you don't want to overfix. That can harm your negatives.

 

[timor]

Exactly. Why do people freak out about this?

Agree with that, a little pink doesn't hurt. But extended time in fixer and prolonged wash will. If OP plans to overfix the negs in order to get rid of the pink, then extended wash seems in order, but any prolonged time in the water will swell the emulsion which may hurt the sharpness. Instead of prolonged wash, which might proof futile anyway as some salts created by fixing are not soluble in the water would be better to use a weak solution (20g / l) of sodium sulfite for 1 or 2 min after fixing and than wash for 10-15 min in continuous flow, 20-22 C, water. And for the pink ? 10% solution of rubbing alcohol will remove it in 1 min. Or less.

 

[damonff]

Since switching to TF-4 fixer the pink does not dare stay on my negatives, TMAX 100 as well. All gone. Best fixer ever.

 

[Richard S. (rich815)]

Since switching to TF-4 fixer the pink does not dare stay on my negatives, TMAX 100 as well. All gone. Best fixer ever.

I use TF-4 too. Still get pink on my Tmax even after fixing for 6 min and washing for 10-15 min.

 

[damonff]

I use TF-4 too. Still get pink on my Tmax even after fixing for 6 min and washing for 10-15 min.

Wow, really? Even when it's fresh? Even nearly exhausted TF-4 kills the pink for me. Weird.

 

[Thomas Bertilsson]

I developed Tri-X 120 in HC110, solution B. I am getting a sort of pink, almost red tone on my negatives. Is this normal? or something is not done right?
Can anyone tell me how to cure this problem?

https://www.google.com/#q=site:www.apug.org+pink+stain+negatives

The pink stain is not a problem. It is normal. Don't worry about it.

 

[Lamar]

Several weeks ago I had some T-Max 100 come out pink after 8 minutes in Kodak fixer so have been doing clip tests for every roll since (like I should have been doing anyway). My last clip test for Tri-X took 6.5 minutes to clear with the same fixer batch clearing HP5+ in 3.25 minutes so there is a significant difference in required fix times between at least these films. I used 13 minutes fix time for Tri-X and 7 minutes for the HP5+. Both came out fine.

 

[Thomas Bertilsson]

Several weeks ago I had some T-Max 100 come out pink after 8 minutes in Kodak fixer so have been doing clip tests for every roll since (like I should have been doing anyway). My last clip test for Tri-X took 6.5 minutes to clear with the same fixer batch clearing HP5+ in 3.25 minutes so there is a significant difference in required fix times between at least these films. I used 13 minutes fix time for Tri-X and 7 minutes for the HP5+. Both came out fine.

For me the pink base color comes out with simply an extended wash, but only TMax 100 and 400. With Tri-X it doesn't matter how long I wash it.

But again, it DOESN'T MATTER! Because the pink tint makes no difference to anything in your process.

 

[Tom1956]

For me the pink base color comes out with simply an extended wash, but only TMax 100 and 400. With Tri-X it doesn't matter how long I wash it.

But again, it DOESN'T MATTER! Because the pink tint makes no difference to anything in your process.

Mr Bertilsson, I've come to respect your posts along with some other posters I can think of. Not to take issue right off the bat on your contention that the remaining pink makes no difference, is it not possible for the pink tint to change the color just enough to throw off variable contrast filter selection for someone who has refined a consistent printing procedure?

 

[Doremus Scudder]

Let's put the myths to rest here.

First, a moderately extended fixing time will not have any adverse effect on negatives. The danger from "overfixing" is a slight bleaching of the image. This is a problem only if you fix for very, very much longer than recommended maximum times, say 20-30 minutes (and is less of a danger with "rapid" fixers and not a danger at all with alkaline fixers).

Many recommend a rather long standard fixing time for film in order to ensure adequate fixation. Michael Gudzinowicz' article, "Post-Development Processing" is available here: http://photo.net/black-and-white-photo-film-processing-forum/007dXZ , and is worth reading. If you don't want to wade through all of it, at least scroll down to the section on film fixing.

Gudzinowicz advocates two-bath fixation for film and for rather long times in each bath. Allow me to quote some of the relevant text:

"Since there is no danger in longer fixing times, incorporating a five minute minimum fix in each fixer bath into a "normal" development procedure may avoid problems and provide some security...
...

"With rapid fixers, there is little "danger" of bleaching film with 5-10 minute fixation. Also, if standard procedures are used, any minimal bleaching would never be noticed, since it would be incorporated into tests for contrast and development time.
...

"With T-Max films, Kodak recommends longer times. For instance, they suggest that it is "safe" to check clearing at five minutes with standard fixers or three minutes with rapid fixers, and that total fixing time should be twice the clearing time..."

A longer fixing time than most use is well within these guidelines. The six minutes in rapid fixer that I recommended for Tri-X could even be extended with no harmful effects.

As for washing time: 30 minutes is the Kodak recommended washing time for film that has not been treated in hypo-clearing agent. It is not going to damage your negatives to wash them for 30 minutes even with the hypo-clear if that is needed to remove more of the pink stain. Check out the sticky thread on film washing at the top of this forum for more info and some insights into washing techniques and their efficacy.

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@ Lamar;
If you don't do a clip test in fresh fixer to determine the clearing time in fresh fix, you may be using exhausted fixer! Simply doubling the time of a clip test won't do the job. The fixer should be discarded (or moved to bath one in a two-bath regime) when the clearing time reaches double that in fresh fix. I rather doubt that it takes six and one-half minutes to clear Tri-X in fresh fix!

--------------------------------------------

A general comment about using clip-tests to determine fixing time: Some recommend tripling the clearing time to arrive at the proper fixing time. This is due to the increased amount of silver iodide used in many modern emulsions. While Ilford still sticks by the doubling, the extra time won't hurt if you want to be safe. Plus, if you do large batches of film, the fixer exhausts as it is being used to a greater extent. Adding some time (as Gudzinowicz notes) will not hurt and ensure an adequate safety factor. And, if you use a clip-test as a basis for determining fixing time, you must do one before every batch to determine the time for that particular batch in the partially used fixer. I used to do this, but now simply fix two-bath and at longer standard times. I still use clip tests to determine fixer exhaustion and discard or move a fixing bath to position one when the clearing time approaches that in fresh fix.

Read the Gudzinowicz article and the Ilford technical publication on Rapid Fixer here: http://www.ilfordphoto.com/Webfiles/2011427111531653.pdf . Once you've digested all that, then you'll have a better handle on proper fixation.

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Back to pink: fix longer in fresh fixer, wash longer, use a distilled water final rinse for several minutes before drying and there should be little pink remaining. The remainder will not affect your printing. The small amount of tint is nowhere close to strong enough to ameliorate the effects of filtration for VC papers.

Best,

Doremus

 

[miha]

Let's put the myths to rest here.

I agree we should put this to rest

(and is less of a danger with "rapid" fixers and not a danger at all with alkaline fixers).

I don't want to be pedantic, but can you explain what you mean with the above statement. A rapid fixer (ammonium based) will bleach faster compared to a sodium based or standard fixer.
Also, alkline fixers are of the rapid type too.

 

[Thomas Bertilsson]

Mr Bertilsson, I've come to respect your posts along with some other posters I can think of. Not to take issue right off the bat on your contention that the remaining pink makes no difference, is it not possible for the pink tint to change the color just enough to throw off variable contrast filter selection for someone who has refined a consistent printing procedure?

No. Try it for yourself and see!

 

[Ronald Moravec]

FRESH rapid fix for 5 minutes with heavy agitation, then the Ilford wash method, anything left after that will come out with stand wash for 60 seconds repeated as necessary. I normally use two to be sure.

I use TF4 or Kodak Rapid with no hardener one shot. You can not substitute more wash for inadequate fix with worn fixer. It does not work.

Ifford wash is 3 baths of fresh water, 10 inversions, 10 inversions, 20 inversions. I modify by 10 10 10 10. Agitation in my darkroom is a 16 ox tank, film reel on bottom, empty on top, 10 oz of water. Use any method that removes the film from the water such as a lifting rod.

I stress again proper fix with fresh fixer is key.

 

[pstake]

I use TF-4 too. Still get pink on my Tmax even after fixing for 6 min and washing for 10-15 min.

Not sure if someone already pointed this out, but TF-5 does a great job removing stain from T-Max.

 

[Doremus Scudder]

... I don't want to be pedantic, but can you explain what you mean with the above statement. A rapid fixer (ammonium based) will bleach faster compared to a sodium based or standard fixer.
Also, alkline fixers are of the rapid type too.

I'm using Gudzinowicz as my reference here (see the article I linked to). I assume that the bleaching "danger" is less with rapid fixers simply because the total fixing time is less. As far as I know, alkaline fixers do not have the bleaching characteristic, but I can't verify that at this point since I can't seem to lay my hands on any authoritative sources right now.

At any rate, it is really only for fiber-base paper that the dance between adequate fixing and keeping the time in the fixer short enough so that the paper base doesn't absorb any more than necessary is important. The image bleaching that happens in the fix is really minimal even at very long times. I've tested at 20 minutes with rapid fix and couldn't see any noticeable bleaching at all.

Best,

Doremus

 

[miha]

The more acidic, the greater the bleaching action.

Why? wouldn't this imply that acid fixers are stronger/faster in action (thus better)?