Tray processing 4x5 - newbie questions

[Sanjay Sen]

So, I developed my own film for the first time a few days back: processed seven sheets of Fortepan 200 in D-76 1:1 for 12 minutes, in two batches of two and five sheets respectively (pre-soaked for 2 minutes). I used continuous agitation during development for the first minute, after that for 5 seconds every 30 seconds. For pre-soak, I had the film emulsion side up, and for development I had them emulsion side down. I fixed for 3 minutes, washed for 8-10 minutes in running water and followed by a final rinse in Ilfotol for 1 minute. Before I process more film this weekend, I have some questions:

#1. How do you attain the recommended developer temperature? In my bath/darkroom, I have faucets that have one knob for the water temperature (no separate knobs for hot and cold). Consequently, it takes me a long time to adjust the position of the knob to get water at the right temperature. Is there a better way to get water at the desired temperature?

#2. How do you maintain developer temperature? In my case, by the time I got to the second batch of processing, the developer temperature had dropped by a few degrees. Although I compensated for this drop in temperature, I'd like to know if there is a simple way to maintain the developer's temperature so that compensation is not required.

#3. For each processing batch, I pre-soaked the sheets together (didn't have enough trays) although it's recommended to have one pre-soak tray for each sheet. How does having a separate pre-soak tray for each sheet affect the final result? In other words, why is it recommended to presoak one sheet per tray?

#4. When I turned the light on after the film was in the fixer, I found that the water in the pre-soak tray had turned green. Is this normal?

#5. A couple of the negatives from each batch had some scratches on them. Was this caused due to my inexperience, or was it due to my pre-soak routine (no separate trays), or was it due to the film being emulsion side down in the developer? I'm guessing it was the first - I'll see how it goes this weekend.

#6. Lastly, what timers do you use while developing film? I have a Gralab 300 that has a luminous dial, but I found that I had to time myself by going 1-elephant, 2-elephant, 3-elephant, ....:rolleyes: as the timer hands are not very visible. I guess I need a timer that ticks, a metronome?


I apologize for the long-winded post, and thank you for your patience if you've read through all the way here!



Best wishes,

 

[reub2000]

I generally just get the water used to mix hc-110 dilution B to 20C/68F and figure it will stay there because that's pretty close to room temperature, especially in my laundry room. You can use a larger tray for a water jacket.

 

[Gatsby1923]

#1. How do you attain the recommended developer temperature? In my bath/darkroom, I have faucets that have one knob for the water temperature (no separate knobs for hot and cold). Consequently, it takes me a long time to adjust the position of the knob to get water at the right temperature. Is there a better way to get water at the desired temperature?

There are special (expensive) mixing valves. You'll get better with practice doing what your doing though.

#2. How do you maintain developer temperature? In my case, by the time I got to the second batch of processing, the developer temperature had dropped by a few degrees. Although I compensated for this drop in temperature, I'd like to know if there is a simple way to maintain the developer's temperature so that compensation is not required.

I just try to keep the room around the temp of the developer... not easy in a basement durring a new england winter, but it is easier than a water bath that will also change temp.

#3. For each processing batch, I pre-soaked the sheets together (didn't have enough trays) although it's recommended to have one pre-soak tray for each sheet. How does having a separate pre-soak tray for each sheet affect the final result? In other words, why is it recommended to presoak one sheet per tray?

No Idea and new one to me. Prevent scratching maybe? I just soak them all in the same tray.

#4. When I turned the light on after the film was in the fixer, I found that the water in the pre-soak tray had turned green. Is this normal?

Yes perfectly fine. Develope in Rodinal and see a pretty magenta colored water... it is just removing some of the anti-halation dyes.

#5. A couple of the negatives from each batch had some scratches on them. Was this caused due to my inexperience, or was it due to my pre-soak routine (no separate trays), or was it due to the film being emulsion side down in the developer? I'm guessing it was the first - I'll see how it goes this weekend.

I'd geuss the first. I get less scratched emulsion side down than up. It takes practice.

#6. Lastly, what timers do you use while developing film? I have a Gralab 300 that has a luminous dial, but I found that I had to time myself by going 1-elephant, 2-elephant, 3-elephant, ....:rolleyes: as the timer hands are not very visible. I guess I need a timer that ticks, a metronome?

I listen to music myself... I have some CD's where i know the track lenths and will play the cd knowing when the song is over to go onto the next step.

Keep it up and soon you'll be a pro.

Dave M

 

[reellis67]

#1. How do you attain the recommended developer temperature?

I use room temperature distilled water, which stays around 70-74, for mixing developers so I just adjust my development times to compensate for what ever temperature it happens to be.

#2. How do you maintain developer temperature?

I suppose that I must be lucky - my temperatures don't change more than a degree or two during tray development. I've read *Danger Will Robinson!* that using a larger tray filled with water will help keep the temperature stable. As the temp changes in the smaller tray the temperature of the outer tray works against the change since it is a larger volume, hence it takes more energy to change the temperature. Heat accumulated in the smaller tray will be dissipated to the larger tray keeping it more stable.

#3. For each processing batch, I pre-soaked the sheets together (didn't have enough trays) although it's recommended to have one pre-soak tray for each sheet.

I put all mine in the same tray, one on top of the other, emulsion side down. I shuffle them a few times, maybe for a minute or two, and then move them one at a time to the developer. I've never seen anything about soaking in individual trays - what is the advantage supposed to be with that method?

#4. When I turned the light on after the film was in the fixer, I found that the water in the pre-soak tray had turned green. Is this normal?

Yep. The anti-halation dye comes off in the pre-soak

#5. A couple of the negatives from each batch had some scratches on them.

Some films appear to be more scratch-prone than others but I've found that emulsion side down keeps scratches from happening. Also, if you lay the sheet flat on the water and then press it down gently rather than sliding it in on top of the stack it helps greatly.

#6. Lastly, what timers do you use while developing film? I have a Gralab 300 that has a luminous dial, but I found that I had to time myself by going 1-elephant, 2-elephant, 3-elephant, ....:rolleyes: as the timer hands are not very visible. I guess I need a timer that ticks, a metronome?

I too use a Gralab, a model 300, but the dial is clearly visible in the dark on mine. You might be able to paint over the numbers with luminescent paint, or just keep working until the timers stops (mine makes enough noise to tell when it is running and when it has stopped).

- Randy

 

[Sanjay Sen]

Thank you reub2000, Dave and Randy for taking the time to read through my post and answering my questions. I really appreciate your help with this - I will put your suggestions to use this weekend.

I believe I read the "pre-soak each sheet in its own tray" recommendation in Steve Simmon's book. However, I will double check and make sure that I understand it right.


Best wishes,

 

[Konical]

Good Morning, Sanjay,

Re the Gralab: Subject the luminescent dial to strong light immediately before you start processing. Mine is over thirty years old, and the dial still shows up fine as long as it hasn't been sitting in darkness or very subdued lighting for a while. Just shining a small flashlight directly on the upper right-hand quadrant of the dial for a few seconds may be enough to "activate" it.

Konical

 

[Paul Howell]

#5. A couple of the negatives from each batch had some scratches on them. Was this caused due to my inexperience, or was it due to my pre-soak routine (no separate trays), or was it due to the film being emulsion side down in the developer? I'm guessing it was the first - I'll see how it goes this weekend.

What size tray do you use? Although I currently use deep tanks and hangers in past when Ideveloped a large lot of sheets at once in a tray I used 11X14 trays so that I did not need to shuffel the sheets.

 

[Monophoto]

#1. How do you attain the recommended developer temperature? In my bath/darkroom, I have faucets that have one knob for the water temperature (no separate knobs for hot and cold). Consequently, it takes me a long time to adjust the position of the knob to get water at the right temperature. Is there a better way to get water at the desired temperature?

I generally use HC100 dilution H. I mix the working solution from stock (not concentrate) - I simply bring a pitcher of water up to the desired processing temperature, put the stock into a graduate, and add enough water to make the quantity that I need. Because dilution H is pretty dilute, the amount of stock solution per liter of working solution is very small, and mixing that amount of stock to tempered water doesn't change its temperature significantly.

#2. How do you maintain developer temperature? In my case, by the time I got to the second batch of processing, the developer temperature had dropped by a few degrees. Although I compensated for this drop in temperature, I'd like to know if there is a simple way to maintain the developer's temperature so that compensation is not required.

I usually don't worry about this because HC110 dilution H is best used as a one-shot developer. Maximum efficient and consistency, and no problem with either temperature control or compensation for partial exhaustion.

#3. For each processing batch, I pre-soaked the sheets together (didn't have enough trays) although it's recommended to have one pre-soak tray for each sheet. How does having a separate pre-soak tray for each sheet affect the final result? In other words, why is it recommended to presoak one sheet per tray?

Not an issue if you use the developer as a one-shot. That way, you presoak and process in distinct batches.

#4. When I turned the light on after the film was in the fixer, I found that the water in the pre-soak tray had turned green. Is this normal?

Perfectly normal - that's the sensitizing dye in the emulsion washing out.

#5. A couple of the negatives from each batch had some scratches on them. Was this caused due to my inexperience, or was it due to my pre-soak routine (no separate trays), or was it due to the film being emulsion side down in the developer? I'm guessing it was the first - I'll see how it goes this weekend.

Probably all of the above. Processing in open trays does present the risk of scratching, but IMO processing face down provides the best management of that risk. What happens is that as you agitate by removing the bottom sheet from a stack of negatives in a tray and then move it to the top of the stack, the first corner of the sheet to go into the tray tends to scratch the negative just below it. Having the negatives face down means that you will scratch the back of the negatives - not a good thing, but certainly better than scratching the emulsion.

Incidentally, my experience with open tray processing was that agitation had to be essentially continuous.

You might do a search on the term "slosher". Sloshers are inserts that permit multiple sheets of film (typically 6) to be developed simultaneously in a single larger tray. The advantage is that the individual sheets are contained within compartments in the slosher and therefore never touch each other - with the result that there will be no scratching. Sloshers are convenient and highly consistent, and can easily be made from materials purchased a home center.

#6. Lastly, what timers do you use while developing film? I have a Gralab 300 that has a luminous dial, but I found that I had to time myself by going 1-elephant, 2-elephant, 3-elephant, ....:rolleyes: as the timer hands are not very visible. I guess I need a timer that ticks, a metronome?

I use a Gralab 300 also. Mine is pretty old, but I found some phosphorescent paint at an art store (Michael's) that I used to refresh the glow on the hands. I also found some phosphorescent tape (at Adorama) that I used to put tick-marks on the face for my standard processing time. I set the timer for the standard time, turn out the lights, load up the slosher, and then presoak the film. After a minute or so (guestimated - that part isn't rocket science), I transfer the slosher to the developer and start the timer. With my slosher and Dilution H, I agitate continuously for the first 30 seconds and then 5 seconds out of thirty thereafter, with a standard developing time of 11 minutes.

By the way, it helps to have the room lights on for a few minutes before starting the processing sequence to "charge" the phosphorescence in the timer hands and dial.

 

[MarkL]

If you add luminescent tape to your clock, use it sparingly because if there's enough of it close enough to your film it will fog it. I put a roll of it about a foot from an unexposed sheet of Tmax 100 for a minute or two and it fogged the heck out of it - I mean dense fogging. That was an extreme exposure to the tape but I got extreme exposure on the film!

I've never heard of anyone recommending separate trays for presoak and there's no reason for it. You do have to add films individually and ensure they're submerged before adding the next though because, added together, the dry film emulsions will meld to each other and be damaged when you separate them.

To help avoid scratching you can transfer the stack of films to the next tray all at once. Gather them gently into a corner of the tray (I use 5x7 trays for 4x5 film) and then put them in the next tray together.

Hope this helps!

 

[Anupam Basu]

I use a "time track" in the mp3 player in my cell phone - no peering at clocks to bother with.

-A

 

[dslater]

S
#3. For each processing batch, I pre-soaked the sheets together (didn't have enough trays) although it's recommended to have one pre-soak tray for each sheet. How does having a separate pre-soak tray for each sheet affect the final result? In other words, why is it recommended to presoak one sheet per tray?

Best wishes,

One reason I know of for doing this is to handle different development times. Suppose you have an N+1 neg, and N, and an N-1 neg. You would put them in separate pre-soak trays. Then start developing the N+1 neg. After some time, add the N negative to the stack, then after some more time, add the N-1 neg to the stack. Now all 3 negatives will be finished developing at the same time and can go into stop and fixer.

 

[removed account4]

hi sanjay

not sure if this has happened to others, but if one isn't careful putting film in the pre-soak tray,
the sheets of film will stick to eachother. maybe it (together n, n-1, n+1 development times all coming out at once )
is the reason for separate water baths? i have had film stick together in the water and
it is no fun trying to separate them ...

as for an inexpensive solution to your development trays
being the same temperature ... i use a paper rinse tray that
i drilled holes in all around. it is big enough for 2 5x7 trays ( both standard and tupperware ).
i put my pre-soak and developer in there to be the same temp.
i have a hose attached to the water/tap and a thermometer to verify
my temp. the water runs and drains out of the drilled tray, and the
water keeps the 5x7 trays the same temp.
i don't put my post developer rinse or my fix in there cause they aren't as critical temp wise ....

good luck!

-john