Tips buying 2nd hand LF lenses

tim_walls · Jan 7, 2009

As a sort of corollary to the 'intro to large format' thread, I have some questions about buying lenses...

Inspired by a thread here on APUG I managed to convince my wife to blow the budget and buy me one of the DIY 4x5 camera kits from Camera Bellows as a Christmas pressie. (Photos of the thing will follow once I've finished building it .) I've had a monorail for a little while but I don't want to be lens-swapping constantly (different lens board size) so I'm thinking I'll get a 2nd-hand lens from fleabay or similar for the 'field camera'.

One of these days I'm curious about playing around with brass lenses and Packard shutters and the like, but for the timebeing something in a relatively 'modern' leaf shutter like a Copal or Compur would be my preference .

My preferred focal length is 'a bit longer than normal', and I'm looking at the bargain-basement end of things. But I'd like an image circle that will accommodate a decent set of movements, which as far as I can tell rules out the press-camera lenses that seem to be the most common at the bottom end of the market.

Anyway, to cut a long story short, I've been considering the 180mm Sironar f/5.6. Then I read that early Rodenstocks can be prone to delamination; and then I thought "(a) I have no idea how to tell an early Rodenstock from a late one and (b) I wonder what other lore or tips I don't know that could steer me away from a dud and towards a gem."

So... Does anyone have any advice? Either specific to my particular requirements (lens recommendations, how to tell a dodgy Rodenstock from a good one etc.) or perhaps even more useful for the general audience any general helpful hints for the beginning LF lens shopper?

Ta in advance!

Ian Grant · Jan 7, 2009

As I have a de-laminating Sironar and an excellent later model check the Serial no. But the early version looks different. All the Multi Coated versions are OK.

Ian

Rolleiflexible · Jan 7, 2009

In that general size, you might also
consider an 8.5" Commercial Ektar.
They are great lenses and can likely
be found a bit less expensively than
the Sironars. My first lens was a
150mm Sironar but I prefer the
Commercial Ektars.

TheFlyingCamera · Jan 7, 2009

A delaminating lens will show strange iridescent and/or milky areas between the lens elements (inside the glass). If this is present only at the extreme edges, it MAY be acceptable, but is better to avoid. Movements on a field camera are overrated - once you start shooting with one, you'll find quickly that you don't use very much at all - usually only a little front rise and tilt, sometimes a little rear swing. I'd confine my search to modern, multi-coated lenses in Copal shutters. Any of the big name manufacturers are fine - Nikon, Fuji, Rodenstock, Schneider. Also, look at Calumet (Caltar) branded lenses - they are in fact Rodenstock and/or Schneider lenses, just labeled for Calumet. They offer a substantial price break for what is otherwise an identical lens to the manufacturer's own.

dpurdy · Jan 7, 2009

For 15 years shooting in a commercial studio doing table top as well as portraits and all other manner of stuff that finds it's way into a commercial studio, I could probably have gotten by with just my 210 Nikkor W. It is rated for 5x7 but I have shot a lot of stuff 8x10 with it even with some movements. It is sharp as a tack and is available for not much money. I got mine new in 1980 and it still has perfect glass.

Rolleiflexible · Jan 7, 2009

Scott, I am curious: Why would you
confine the search to these lenses?
And why the preference for Copal
shutters?

If shooting color for commercial work,
I would agree with the need to look
for lenses with modern coatings, for
color fidelity. But my work with older
lenses shows me you have to go very
far back before you begin to see
degradations in images caused by
the lenses. I have a 100-year-old
7" Dagor that performs impressively.

While there are older shutters I would
avoid, I've been very happy with the
Acme shutters in which my Commercial
Ektars are set. The mechanisms are
simple, reliable, and maintenance-free.
What more could one ask?

David A. Goldfarb · Jan 7, 2009

I have a 180/5.6 Caltar II-N, which is a Calumet branded Sironar-N, and it's an excellent lens. I highly recommend it. Modern 180mm lenses are something of a bargain, because they're a bit on the long side of normal for 4x5" and normal for 5x7", which is a perfectly good format, but it's not as popular as 4x5" and probably not as popular as 8x10".

Caltar II-S lenses are Schneider, and Caltar II-N lenses are Rodenstock. Earlier Caltar lenses were made by Ilex and various other US manufacturers in general. Generally the Caltars sell for a bit less than the original brands, even though they are exactly the same lenses.

Schneider convertibles from the 1970s are usually excellent bargains. They are generally single coated and in Synchro-Compur shutters, which will usually need a cleaning if they haven't had one recently, so budget around $80 for that, if it's not something you can do yourself.

Ian Grant · Jan 7, 2009

One warning the very early de-laminating Sironar's were all convertibles Later ones aren't Mine is still usable only slight at the moment and is on loan to an Italian APUG member.

Ian

garysamson · Jan 7, 2009

Hi Tim,
If I understand your intent, you are going to use the 180 on your DIY Camera Bellows kit camera. If it's the Bulldog, there isn't a lot of bellows draw on that model and you may be limited a bit in terms of subject matter. Good luck finding a lens.

tim_walls · Jan 7, 2009

Thanks for all the info so far, excellent stuff.

The lens I use at the moment on my monorail is a Caltar 210mm which was bought new; unfortunately Calumet UK are a sorry shadow of Calumet USA and sell basically no LF stuff (barely any film stuff to be honest) - this didn't used to be a problem, but since Sterling has tanked completely importing is not the attractive proposition it used to be .

I'd completely forgotten to think to search for 2nd hand Caltar's though - that's great stuff. I'll take a look for Ektars and Nikkors as well - I hadn't even realised Nikon made lenses for LF.

I'm sure you're right about movements in the field, Scott; I would like something with a reasonable circle so I have the flexibility to swap it into the monorail if I wanted to, but that's certainly a secondary consideration.

TheFlyingCamera · Jan 7, 2009

Rolleiflexible said:
Scott, I am curious: Why would you
confine the search to these lenses?
And why the preference for Copal
shutters?

If shooting color for commercial work,
I would agree with the need to look
for lenses with modern coatings, for
color fidelity. But my work with older
lenses shows me you have to go very
far back before you begin to see
degradations in images caused by
the lenses. I have a 100-year-old
7" Dagor that performs impressively.

While there are older shutters I would
avoid, I've been very happy with the
Acme shutters in which my Commercial
Ektars are set. The mechanisms are
simple, reliable, and maintenance-free.
What more could one ask?

Sanders- the reason I mention modern lenses in modern shutters is because I was trying to eliminate some potential variables from Tim's equation. I have three lenses that use the larger Acme/Ilex shutters and currently do not use any of them because all need some kind of repair or servicing. I have a 12" Commercial Ektar, a 14" Commercial Ektar, and a Turner Reich triple convertible 12-18-25. I also used to have a 12" Ektar F4.5 in the #5 Ilex, and that too needed servicing. While I agree that the Commercial Ektars are wonderful glass (I wouldn't have two of them if I didn't think so), the older shutters require more work to keep operating. Their speeds also have usually drifted from the indicated speeds, and need to be timed and charted - I know that with at least one of my shutters, the two fastest speeds are in fact identical, and one of them, the second and third fastest speeds are identical. Also, the bigger shutters in those lenses may not fit on the lensboards his field camera uses, and may be divorced from their flanges/retaining rings, requiring an additional, sometimes expensive, outlay in order to mount them.

tim_walls · Jan 7, 2009

garysamson said:
Hi Tim,
If I understand your intent, you are going to use the 180 on your DIY Camera Bellows kit camera. If it's the Bulldog, there isn't a lot of bellows draw on that model and you may be limited a bit in terms of subject matter. Good luck finding a lens.

Ahh, now there's something that hadn't even occurred to me! Good spot... I need to do some measuring to see just how much draw it's going to have once it's finished. (Oh, the infuriation of working 200 miles away from where my toys are so I can't just pop home tonight to check these things!)

Schneider Xenar 150mm/4.5 starts to look like a good possibility then.

Ian Grant · Jan 7, 2009

Recently I bought a mint, last production run, 150mm f5.6 Xenar for £100, from a member here (& the LFPI forum), they are superb little lenses & ideal for your Bulldog.

Place a wanted advert & see what comes out of the woodwork.

Ian

Nick Zentena · Jan 7, 2009

The Fuji-W 150mm if you can find them are usually reasonable. Two models. One F/5.6 one slower. The slower is a tessar. The faster a plasmat with lots of coverage.

I was going to suggest the Fuji-L 210mm but you've already got a 210mm. The Fuji-L is basically a copy of an older Kodak lens.

David A. Goldfarb · Jan 7, 2009

I've got a 150/4.5 Xenar that I use all the time. It's a nice compact lens that isn't too expensive usually. A Symmar or Sironar will generally be sharper corner to corner and will have a larger usable image circle. The only reason I don't switch is because the Xenar is cammed for my Technika rangefinder.

John Kasaian · Jan 7, 2009

IMHO you can't go wrong with a 150mm G Claron, Or a 162 Wollensak.

Peter Black · Jan 7, 2009

MXV seem to have quite a few reasonably priced LF lenses at present, including a couple of Xenars as mentioned above. Some of these will be less than beautiful to look at, but they all have a 12 month guarantee to keep you going until Santa arrives next time.

Dead Link Removed

tim_walls · Jan 7, 2009

Thanks everyone for the information; also thanks Ian for the wanted list suggestion - don't know why I didn't think of that!

And thank you very much Peter for the MXV link - I'd not heard of them before; they're based in Uckfield which is less than an hour from where I live by train, and there is some beautiful walking (and photographing!) country round there in the Weald of Sussex (funnily enough I was brought up in the Weald, but of course it's only now that I'm older that I start to appreciate it...) I can feel a visit coming on!

(Of course, the eventual purchase is going to have to wait 'til after payday - the curse of the early Christmas paypacket is weighing heavy as ever .)

Richard Kelham · Jan 7, 2009

If you decide to go for a Xenar I've got one going spare! It's a 150mm f4.5 in a somewhat sticky synchro Compur No.1 shutter (needs a CLA). It's about 40 years old, with clean glass. Contact me off list if you're interested.

k_jupiter · Jan 8, 2009

Nick Zentena said:
The Fuji-W 150mm if you can find them are usually reasonable. Two models. One F/5.6 one slower. The slower is a tessar. The faster a plasmat with lots of coverage.

I was going to suggest the Fuji-L 210mm but you've already got a 210mm. The Fuji-L is basically a copy of an older Kodak lens.

The slower is a 6.3 that will cover 5x7 with small movements. Not a problem, light weight, and in the seiko shutter, reliable over the last 22 years I have owned it.

tim in san jose

Martin Aislabie · Jan 8, 2009

Tim, this thread might help - (there was a url link here which no longer exists)

It has the Serial Numbers v Year of Manufacture of Schneider & Rodenstock lenses.

Another place to look for 2nd hand lenses is Ffords - Dead Link Removed

Happy shopping

Martin

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