Time to re-focus the scope of discussions on Photrio

[Michel Hardy-Vallée]

It's probably obvious but I'll say it anyway: all topics, including photography, have a political angle. Just look at the reactions when someone posts about photographers who depict LGBTQ+ people in a positive light. The bully pulpits get instantly set up.

Still, as long as there's photography involved, I'm OK with politicized discussions/topics on Photrio. But only insofar as they concern photography: I'm also OK with you removing the soapbox, because it's just dead wood. The photo-political discussions may require moderation to avoid flame wars, but you will have fewer threads to watch anyway.

I'm sure everyone here cares, but we have had this forum participation rule for almost 20yrs: "no religious/political discussions or statements in the general forums".

 

[VinceInMT]

…I don't want to have us kick long time contributors out because they have a bad day and find themselves in a single argument about pre-rinsing film….

And I wonder why a discussion about pre-rinsing would have to turn in to an argument but I do know that this type of thing happens. In my experience in many decades of online forums, it seems that some people comment just to tell someone that whatever they are doing, they are doing it wrong, they are using the wrong equipment, or (heavens) using the wrong brand of equipment. While they don’t violate the rules regarding politics, religion, etc., they do impact the tone of a discussion.

 

[sasah zib]

I have no vote. I do have questions, and observations from someone far removed from the online world. My primary reason for this entry is a couple of your respondents seemed apt, matching conversations which arise during reading groups.
There is a person who has spent the past 3 years on what has become several interrelated projects. Her edit stack of color prints is now almost as tall as she. This is all large format work.
She is what is termed, 'emerging.' -- she has gallery representation, and now an editor for a probable book. Her project involved travel and discussion with people she had to disguise herself from -- her range was:
Ft. Polk to Fort Collins; Chinle to Cicero; Wheeling to Wyoming.

There isn't one thing about her work that isn't political, religious, economic, medical, media attendant -- other than that the choice of film, camera, color paper - exactly the things she and hers avoid discussing, calling them Craft badges for a Brownie Sash.

my appreciation to: Richard Man -- too bad they didn't know the meaning or history.

Perhaps I can provide something: Let the original poster, the originator, have ownership of the thread.
Also, make/mark threads of two types, one with a craft, skill, question, technical type -- indicating the useful from the garbage answers. The other, one meant for wider opinion with the hope of expanding the range of "other" skills; again, with the OP as a moderator, selector.

I don't think any of this is easy; why I don't do it. Me and mine opt to meet in studios or over IM/zoom/tube

 

[Alex Benjamin]

Looks like I poked the bear.

I'll just go back to my bubblegum and rock n' roll or whatever the kids are doing these days.

It's a Canadian bear and like all Canadian bears it sleeps all winter and doesn't like to be poked.

As a Star Trek and general sci-fi fan, I only trust people who say "it's the way of the future" who actually come from the future and can show me that the way of the future didn't peter out after a few days/months/years of being the way of the future. I'm old enough to remember when 8-track tapes were "the way of the future", and I'm getting too much "bitcoins are the way of the future" and "NFTs are the way of the future" from people who come back to me a few weeks later lamenting about how they've been scammed by bitcoins and NFTs to trust any paragraph that has the words "it's the way of the future" in them .

 

[Alan Edward Klein]

I have to say though, for a photography forum there aren't so many photos being posted...

I agree with that. I keep my photos on Flickr with a link at the bottom of my posts. Often, someone describes a process they use, or whatever, Yet they have no photos posted to show what they mean. Why would I take their advice if they can't show me the results of their process or ideas? That's bizarre to me. Would anyone buy a photo or piece of art sight unseen? How can you have a photo site if you're not posting photos somewhere?

 

[Alan Edward Klein]

I have to say though, for a photography forum there aren't so many photos being posted...

Where would I find your photos? Maybe I;m missing something but I only see one picture here posted. Do you have another site? Link?

 

[Alan Edward Klein]

A general member can only post photos in a thread, where it gets quickly lost. General members can't comment on gallery photos, so there's not much incentive to lurk there. If I post a photo in a thread, I'll very quickly lose track of it. So, if I later want to not have it available for people to see (for whatever reason), I have to work to find it. There's not much encouraging people to post photos here, really...

Join Flickr. It's free for enough pictures you can use. Then post the link in your avatar or signature section as I do.

 

[DonW]

And I wonder why a discussion about pre-rinsing would have to turn in to an argument but I do know that this type of thing happens. In my experience in many decades of online forums, it seems that some people comment just to tell someone that whatever they are doing, they are doing it wrong, they are using the wrong equipment, or (heavens) using the wrong brand of equipment. While they don’t violate the rules regarding politics, religion, etc., they do impact the tone of a discussion.

This plus those that post nonsensical stuff just to get their post count higher.

 

[Alan Edward Klein]

I want to see the Soap Box go. But only because of what it has become.
But I do expect that one of the results will be a lot more people posting things that require moderation, and I'm concerned about whether there are enough moderation resources to go around, even with some additional software tools.
Careful, thoughtful moderation takes a lot of energy and time, and deleting or editing posts is not an easy task.
When I signed in this morning, there were ten posts that were automatically flagged as requiring moderation, before they went "live". I expect there are others too that will reveal themselves, even when not flagged. It is not easy or quick to make some of those decisions.
VTLD referenced an off topic post in this thread that was subsequently deleted. It was a really good post, about a crucially important non-photographic issue. It truly didn't belong in this thread, but it was hard to make the decision to delete it.
All of which is to say that it is fine to say that we need more moderation, but more moderation isn't something that magically appears. And more moderation means that even generally well behaved and contributing members will sometimes have their posts moderated.
By, the way, in response to halfaman's observation. We are no longer a strictly analogue photography focussed site, even if that is where the majority of the discussion still centres.
As for the Lounge - there is some fun stuff there, so leave it in please.

That's a valid point, Matt. Your time is valuable. Maybe there is a member who you trust who would volunteer to moderate just that forum section?

 

[warden]

It's a poor time for the board when people like John, Michael, and Greg have left.

I agree. I'm encouraged by this thread though, and the overwhelming majority of respondents so far seem ready to let go of the soap box vitriol that spills to other forums and commit to a more civil discourse. Perhaps as the changes take shape and the tone improves, some of the community members who left will consider returning. For now though I appreciate the effort that Sean, Matt and others are offering to fix these problems. Thanks guys.

 

[DonW]

How long is this poll and thread going to be left open? Seems all those with a stake in the game have said their piece.

 

[Alan Edward Klein]

I only do analog photography. I do have a cheap scanner, but it can only do 35mm while I shoot mostly medium format or 4x5, and a more capable scanner is not something I want to invest in. I only use the scanner to check out certain things like composition. This to say that few of my photos - at least the ones I care for - are not in any digital format. I suspect a lot of people on the analog section have a similar story.

That's an excellent point, one I had;t thought of. But we are missing seeing your work. Is there a way you can take a photo of some prints you're proud of with your cellphone and post those? I realize it may not be as good a depiction as a scanner made for that purpose. But it would be a way we can enjoy your work and you could share your work with us It seems to be a shame that we can't see other members' works.

 

[mshchem]

Simple. Stay focused on topics relevant to photography, stay civil, don't be sneaky, ie no hidden agendas. Behave like your mom is watching over your shoulder

 

[Alan Edward Klein]

"Photography is art"... that's ridiculous on its face. I don't think Photrio should serve the needs of KKK members or religious fanatics. Please confirm Mappelthorp's spelling before citing him again. Show a little respect.

Apparently, you don't need an off-topic section to make personal attacks. Associating my point with the KKK and fanatics is a little over the top and uncalled for. And I'm sure the dead Mr. Mappelthorp will forgive me for misspelling his name.

 

[Cholentpot]

It's a Canadian bear and like all Canadian bears it sleeps all winter and doesn't like to be poked.

As a Star Trek and general sci-fi fan, I only trust people who say "it's the way of the future" who actually come from the future and can show me that the way of the future didn't peter out after a few days/months/years of being the way of the future. I'm old enough to remember when 8-track tapes were "the way of the future", and I'm getting too much "bitcoins are the way of the future" and "NFTs are the way of the future" from people who come back to me a few weeks later lamenting about how they've been scammed by bitcoins and NFTs to trust any paragraph that has the words "it's the way of the future" in them .

ToS is the only way to go. I'm opinionated.

Where would I find your photos? Maybe I;m missing something but I only see one picture here posted. Do you have another site? Link?

In some threads I'll post. I don't post much to the gallery itself.

 

[warden]

That's an excellent point, one I had;t thought of. But we are missing seeing your work. Is there a way you can take a photo of some prints you're proud of with your cellphone and post those? I realize it may not be as good a depiction as a scanner made for that purpose. But it would be a way we can enjoy your work and you could share your work with us It seems to be a shame that we can't see other members' works.

Ned (NB23) shows cell phone pics of his wet prints and they look great! Not as good as the prints of course, but still useful.

 

[Alan Edward Klein]

Why in God's name would " Biden " be the first example to come to mind of a flagged word. Ozmoose is bang on. I am sure many do not comment on the basis of sheer hopelessness.

Well, Lincoln and Washington should be on there too.

 

[AgX]

Perhaps I can provide something: Let the original poster, the originator, have ownership of the thread.

I reject this, as then a thread likely turns into a pure self-presentation of the OP, or a call to only discuss his special issue, as in a private councelling.

The merit of a forum to be of mutal (the OP vs. the community) benefit would then vanish.

 

[Alan Edward Klein]

My wife's family had all their pictures put on a VHS tape. Try sticking one of these things In a USB A, B,or C port .

I bought a Firewire connection and played back my VHS tapes on my VHS recorder into my computer for processing.

 

[Alan Edward Klein]

This kind of highlights how difficult it is to moderate things.
I'm responding to this because I hope that it illustrates something about moderation.
pentaxuser's original post included a bunch of detail about political issues and current affairs - the sort of thing that we are trying to remove from the site. However, those details were provided as context for a cogent argument about how relevant to a photographic forum discussion about such things could be to that forum.
We have deleted political and current events discussions from this thread before. I tried to delete the political stuff from pentaxuser's thread, leaving only enough to retain enough context to retain the cogent argument.
I had thought I had succeeded.

Why is it necessary to eliminate political thought or disagreement? We disagree about photography all the time. I think the issue is personal attacks. As long as we're debating ideas, even political ones,s, there' no harm, no foul. It's when people start to attack others personally that it becomes a problem. Stop personal attacks and you'll be OKay.

 

[Don_ih]

Join Flickr. It's free for enough pictures you can use. Then post the link in your avatar or signature section as I do.

I have an Instagram account - that amounts to the same thing. But I think posting photos should be a more natural part of membership of this site. With even commenting not granted to regular members, and the fact that gallery access would go poof if you stopped subscribing, there's not much incentive to even look at what people post there.

Anyway, the Soapbox. Discussing religion, politics, social issues, etc., is not the problem. Those are things that should be discussed, can benefit people by discussing them. The problem is how insulting and belligerent people become. There are truly insulting personal comments sitting around in all corners of this forum - they don't seem to get deleted. Why is that?

 

[Alan Edward Klein]

This is embarrassing. I don't see an off-topic section, only the lounge. Have I been missing something?

 

[Alan Edward Klein]

Bravo...this is addressing the offenders, who abuse topics, both photographic and non-photographic.
My own feelings closely mirror those expressed by Sirius Glass...a few children pee in the pool, and the need to control them is the rational approach, rather than closing the pool..

I live in a 55+ community with a pool. It's not the children who are a problem.

 

[AgX]

This is embarrassing. I don't see an off-topic section, only the lounge. Have I been missing something?

It is only visible to subscribers.
Actually, even when having had a subscriber status I did not come it across.

 

[Mike Lopez]

Apparently, you don't need an off-topic section to make personal attacks. Associating my point with the KKK and fanatics is a little over the top and uncalled for. And I'm sure the dead Mr. Mappelthorp will forgive me for misspelling his name.

Alan, I corrected jtk's misspelling of Mapplethorpe up above. It appears he jumped your ass without knowing what he's talking about. Now show some respect!