Time to re-focus the scope of discussions on Photrio

[Down Under]

I will say, in this, my last post on this topic (and this is a promise), that Sean has some difficult decisions ahead of him, to be made and enforced.

As members of this forum, we all want the best for this wonderful site, and we owe it to him to be supportive to whatever he decides to go with. I will do so.

But I would so like to see the demise of the damn soap box...

 

[juan]

I haven’t looked in the lounge or the soapbox in more than a decade.

 

[Ozxplorer]

It seems to me that the general "membership" is very ambivalent about the whole issue! Only 110 have bothered enough to "vote" out of +/- 1400 views by 93000 members... While mindful of the propensity for some content, language usage (both English and non-English speakers) and "tone" to rattle some member sensitivities at times; I'd rather we concentrated on the photographic process! In my opinion this, after all, is what underpins the success of this group!

 

[logan2z]

It seems to me that the general "membership" is very ambivalent about the whole issue! Only 110 have bothered enough to "vote" out of +/- 1400 views by 93000 members...

In all fairness, I'm pretty sure the 93,000 number is the number of people who have registered with the site since the dawn of time. I suspect the number of 'active' members is a small fraction of that. Also, the number of thread views may not be by unique members (I'm sure Sean could verify). I've probably viewed the thread 50+ times to read the latest posts.

 

[Ozxplorer]

In all fairness, I'm pretty sure the 93,000 number is the number of people who have registered with the site since the dawn of time. I suspect the number of 'active' members is a small fraction of that. Also, the number of thread views may not be by unique members (I'm sure Sean could verify). I've probably viewed the thread 50+ times to read the latest posts.

Essentially that is the point I'm making! Being pedantic about the detail serves little purpose... If the topic is/was of importance the thread activity would reflect a vastly greater collective interest and not just the attention of a motivated few...

 

[BrianShaw]

Essentially that is the point I'm making! Being pedantic about the detail serves little purpose... If the topic is/was of importance the thread activity would reflect a vastly greater collective interest and not just the attention of a motivated few...

122 votes probably does represent a fair representation of the currently active, meaning those who participate on a regular basis, members. Nonetheless, I hope you included your opinion in the poll.

 

[mshchem]

Big changes coming

 

[Richard Man]

The saddest comment I ever saw is "photography is not art". So... sad.

 

[MattKing]

Quite likely some are like me - we have commented (and in my case a lot more) but haven't voted.
So don't put too much weight on the number.

 

[DonW]

Much like general elections. People want change but then can't be bothered to vote for it. This IS NOT intended to be a political comment in any way shape or form. Just an observation of human nature.

The people who post and truly care will vote one way or another. Here at the top of this thread or with their "feet" so to speak.

APUG and now Photrio is a wonderful experiment in furthering the enjoyment of photographic creation. To let it collapse because of a few bad actors would be very sad indeed.

Change is needed.

Don

 

[MattKing]

The saddest comment I ever saw is "photography is not art". So... sad.

Photography is a big tent which contains art and a lot more.
That big tent is part of what the site seeks to support.

 

[BrianShaw]

Quite likely some are like me - we have commented (and in my case a lot more) but haven't voted.
So don't put too much wait on the number.

How’s that for leadership…

Don has it right! (For clarity… DonW).

 

[jvo]

Good decision Sean... it's appropriate as things evolve... that process will continue.

Thanks for your consideration in what must have been a difficult process.

 

[MattKing]

How’s that for leadership…

Don has it right! (For clarity… DonW).

Sorry, I wasn't clear.
You need to also look at other ways people have responded, because in this case (unlike elections) there are ways to comment that don't require a vote.
I tend to value the comments more than the votes for things like this, so I put more time into actually typing something, and rarely just tick something to add to the tally.
If the decision was going to be made based on the vote total, I would have voted.

 

[Cholentpot]

That, IMHO, this is the reason why forums like this site do not attract/retain new members. Think about the thing that people want to *talk about* photography, a good proportion will be about gear, e.g. what is the image circle of the Cooke Viib 158mm? I wondered about that yesterday, but of course instead of asking, I did a web search and of course there are "real discussions" on this site and the LFPF site. I looked at the posts, find that some are from people whose opinions on lens matter that I trust, and I followed suit with a purchase. If there wasn't any prior discussion, would I have asked here? Probably not, because if it's so obscure that no one talks about it for the last 20+ years, no one would care to talk about it now.

How many people know that Stephen diRado probably shoots more 8x10 in a month than most people do in a lifetime, and his photos are quite masterful? Certainly not from this site nor LFPF (I believe someone actually mentioned him on this site a week ago, finally). Where do we see his work? By doomscrolling the Book of Face. How about Shane, whose work has been criticized numerous times here, but he has shot over 3000+ wetplates, and you can see his work (OK, he posts on too many groups, but whatever, doomscroll away...), again on FB? Some of his works are just fantastic.

So instead of photos, here we have people talk about gear, or trashing each other. Come on, a well known member whose tagline is "I leave digital to proctologists". Eff;'ing passive aggressive much? People like that are in poor taste, and tolerated because he loves Hasselblad. Big fat hairy deal.

In the end, we artists need to see arts. We don't need to see critiques. Who cares if you think my exposure is 1 stop over? As a photographer who has some experience, and at my dayjob, a senior director of engineering (that and $4.50 get me a cup of chai tea latte), I have come to the conclusion that "critiques" are worse than useless, especially to other artists. Too many people engage in negative criticism, rather than lifting each other up.

I don't know if the forums can be changed or "saved", but providing more opportunities to share arts, and a venue for useful discussions, could possibly attract new members. Yes, I know about the perils of popularity site such as IG, or a few years ago, px500, etc. I don't have the answers, all I know is that this proposed fix will not be the solution. Maybe it will help to retain some members, but by themselves, I doubt they will attract new members.

I only do analog photography. I do have a cheap scanner, but it can only do 35mm while I shoot mostly medium format or 4x5, and a more capable scanner is not something I want to invest in. I only use the scanner to check out certain things like composition. This to say that few of my photos - at least the ones I care for - are not in any digital format. I suspect a lot of people on the analog section have a similar story.

While I do understand that many users do not have the means or will to post digital scans of their images, this is the way of the future. Many of us younger photographers shoot only to scan digitally. It may see odd to some more experienced hands but even growing up in the late 80's - the 90's most of my parents photos were digitally scanned at some point. We got the prints that were scanned via proprietary machinery. Digital scanning of analog photography goes a'way back.

I just really like to see peoples work when they talk about their art. Either the photos themselves of the photos of the gear they're talking about. Photography is a visual medium, we happen to be on a digital medium talking about analog photography. It's just the way it is to see the work displayed digitally. I think we've left the days of 'Digital is trash!' 'Film is for luddites!' behind and people have come to embrace both sides of the art.

 

[pentaxuser]

Currently we have Russia's invasion of Ukraine in the Soapbox and rightly so in the sense that it is was not, is not and never will be a photography topic but it allows us to exchange views and sources on {EDITED}

The soapbox on Photrio gives a community the ability to interact with each other in such events and as such, can be helpful. I can't speak for others but for 2 years now since Covid19 I have largely had little or no contact with anybody other than immediate family to interact with

OK the current crisis {EDITED} then I for one may not be able to devote much time or have much inclination to devote time to photographic matters

pentaxuser

(Moderator: I've edited out most of the specific political and current events contents in this post, but enough is left to support the site related argument made)

Fine but it was an analogy about times of serious crisis such as was the period to which I referred and I thought it was a propos to what I was referring to in the ability to interact with fellow members in such situations. Unfortunately without a direct reference to that part that has been edited I suspect the point I mentioned makes this response from me sound like some obscure message written in code or written by someone whose mental capacity is now in question.

Did he write something very provocative and or something that added fuel to the fire is the question I can see others ask who may not have seen my original response before it was edited. I don't think my analogy since edited did either but there we are

I'll have to live it

pentaxuser

 

[cowanw]

Why in God's name would " Biden " be the first example to come to mind of a flagged word. Ozmoose is bang on. I am sure many do not comment on the basis of sheer hopelessness.

 

[mshchem]

While I do understand that many users do not have the means or will to post digital scans of their images, this is the way of the future. Many of us younger photographers shoot only to scan digitally. It may see odd to some more experienced hands but even growing up in the late 80's - the 90's most of my parents photos were digitally scanned at some point. We got the prints that were scanned via proprietary machinery. Digital scanning of analog photography goes a'way back.

I just really like to see peoples work when they talk about their art. Either the photos themselves of the photos of the gear they're talking about. Photography is a visual medium, we happen to be on a digital medium talking about analog photography. It's just the way it is to see the work displayed digitally. I think we've left the days of 'Digital is trash!' 'Film is for luddites!' behind and people have come to embrace both sides of the art.

My wife's family had all their pictures put on a VHS tape. Try sticking one of these things In a USB A, B,or C port .

 

[MattKing]

Why in God's name would " Biden ' be the first example to come to mind of a flagged word. Ozmoose is bang on. I am sure many do not comment on the basis of sheer hopelessness.

I assure you, there is a long list of potential words, and no hierarchy (first being more important than last) would be necessary.

 

[jvo]

Yes, absolutely! This is suppose to be an analog board. There is no reason to have that section here.

I vote for the return of APUG!

hmmm... diversity is part of life, a mono-culture often doesn't survive.

 

[Cholentpot]

My wife's family had all their pictures put on a VHS tape. Try sticking one of these things In a USB A, B,or C port .

My mothers family did this with all their cine film! And then threw out the reels! Ugh! And the transfer was horrible, at the wrong speeds onto VHS. I did digitize it in the end but what a loss.

 

[MattKing]

Fine but it was an analogy about times of serious crisis such as was the period to which I referred and I thought it was a propos to what I was referring to in the ability to interact with fellow members in such situations. Unfortunately without a direct reference to that part that has been edited I suspect the point I mentioned makes this response from me sound like some obscure message written in code or written by someone whose mental capacity is now in question.

Did he write something very provocative and or something that added fuel to the fire is the question I can see others ask who may not have seen my original response before it was edited. I don't think my analogy since edited did either but there we are

I'll have to live it

pentaxuser

This kind of highlights how difficult it is to moderate things.
I'm responding to this because I hope that it illustrates something about moderation.
pentaxuser's original post included a bunch of detail about political issues and current affairs - the sort of thing that we are trying to remove from the site. However, those details were provided as context for a cogent argument about how relevant to a photographic forum discussion about such things could be to that forum.
We have deleted political and current events discussions from this thread before. I tried to delete the political stuff from pentaxuser's thread, leaving only enough to retain enough context to retain the cogent argument.
I had thought I had succeeded.

 

[Ozxplorer]

Quite likely some are like me - we have commented (and in my case a lot more) but haven't voted.
So don't put too much weight on the number.

More to my point... voting is but one of the indicators... as of now there are 119 replies by members some making multiple posts. So, again I ask just how we deduce there to be a strong collective interest in developing a "speech censorship program" to ensure the establishment of a "safe space" for members of all stripes, interests, language ability and experience who might at some future time believe their sensibilities to be a little stirred? I acknowledge Sean is the arbiter in this matter but is "Big Tech" involvement in inter-member relationships really warranted?

 

[BrianShaw]

More to my point... voting is but one of the indicators... as of now there are 119 replies by members some making multiple posts. So, again I ask just how we deduce there to be a strong collective interest in developing a "speech censorship program" to ensure the establishment of a "safe space" for members of all stripes, interests, language ability and experience who might at some future time believe their sensibilities to be a little stirred? I acknowledge Sean is the arbiter in this matter but is "Big Tech" involvement in inter-member relationships really warranted?

“Speech censorship program”???????

There seems no way to deduce the conclusion other than to stay tuned for a leadership decisionMatt leaves the door open for the voting to potentially be rigged. LOL

 

[Truzi]

The new system will go some way to alerting people of the rules, as a post occurs it could be flagged based on known key words and halted with the member needing to confirm it adheres to the forum rules, so that such posts are not made in the first place. The system might say "We've detected "Biden" in your post, please be aware political posts are off-topic" etc. The report post function will also be expanded to include categories and if multiple parties report something, and it passes a threshold of reports it can be put in limbo until mods have a look at it. We'll be expanding the moderation team to 2 tiers.. 1) senior mods 2) community mods. Initially I am aiming for 5-7 senior mods and 15-20 community mods. Community mods will be able to quickly engage with off-topic content/poor behavior and put it in limbo while a senior mod can make a final decision on it. Members that cause problems will be given low grade warnings with a system that will build over time resulting in periods of banning and ultimately full bans.

I think it's good the rules be illuminated, as it were. At the moment they are linked in an unobvious manner. I hope they are more concrete as well.

The system message identifying words sounds good too - and is not unlike how you had it try to make sure people put posts in the proper areas... I'm assuming that's still in place, I've not created a new thread in ages.

Be careful with the automatic limbo after a threshold of reports - this was easy to game with rules in high school (up to and including having someone expelled), and is only easier online.

When I make a decision I've usually thought about it long and at length before i do, and after i go i tend to stay away. In future I will continue reading those forums that interest me and now and then, if I believe I can contribute something worthwhile to a discussion about photography, I will.

Been there, have been doing that.

My wife's family had all their pictures put on a VHS tape. Try sticking one of these things In a USB A, B,or C port .

There are a couple models of Sony dvmc-da, and some old camcorders can do this. I'm sure many more devices can as well, lol. My grandfather had put all his home movies on VHS... but I still have the reels, and projector, and even the camera, which still works.