The rule on fixing film

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Does anybody follow the rule of fixing film twice the time it takes for the film to clear? And am I risking fogging my negatives when the emulsion hasn't cleared and appears milky? Or should I just fix film for 5 minutes in all cases? :confused:
 
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I pretty much run my fix for 5.5. If I do it differently for a particular film I note it on my process page for that film.
 

jp498

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I follow the twice the time it takes to clear rule. I use mostly tmax film and sometimes the fixer is slightly below 68f, so I'm not surprised that it takes longer.
 

tkamiya

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Using Kodak's fixer, I fix for 10 minutes, which is about the double of time it takes to clear. TriX seem to clear faster than Tmax. You can do your own experiment by leader you clip off from 35mm film. Soak it in fixer and time how long it takes to clear completely.
 

ntenny

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I thought it was thrice the clearing time, but maybe I'm being overly cautious. In practice, what this means is that I fix for three minutes (this is in TF-4, which clears film really fast) when the fixer is fresh, and check the clearing time every few rolls to see if I need to go longer than that.

Just thinking from first principles, I guess under-fixing would cause long-term fogging; the leftover halides would be activated by light, and while they'll never see developer again, they should still reduce and deposit silver *eventually*.

-NT
 

RobertV

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Fix time = 2x clear time for regular cubical type films.
Fix time = 3x clear time for Tgrain type films.

e.g. Retro 80S clears in 45 seconds so here I have 1,5 minute fix time. I am always using 1+4 concentrate for film fix.
But some films are longer. 3-5 minutes is a regular fix time.
 

Robert Hall

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Fix times depend on a couple things. One is what kind of fix you are using. If it's rapid fix (amonium thio), it's much faster than Sodium Thiosulphate. Two, how fresh is the fix?

If you follow the directions on the package, it will generally render good results.

Don't use your fix from film for paper prints as the film may deposit iodides that can cause issues with the longevity of the prints.

After about 24 hours if you haven't completely fixed your film, re-fixing will do little to clear them completely.
 

spolly74

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I do, after doing a leader test for each session. Mostly I'm afraid to do otherwise - I don't know enough to deviate from accepted practice at this point.
 

Q.G.

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Yikes.
The film wil appear clear long before it is properly fixed. You will not see any change marking the moment it is fixed properly.
So what are you looking for when you fix BY INSPECTION?
 

Laurent

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I too run a "clip test" at each developing session. I had issues with exhausted fixer once or twice, and prefer knowing when it turns bad.

I fix for 3 or 4 times the time it takes to clear the clip test.
 

Mike Wilde

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I test when the developer is fresh. Take a leader of the same tiype of film (snipped when loading the reel for 35mm, or an inch harvested from the back of a 120 when loading the reel).

Place a drop of fixer on the emulsion size of the film tab when it is laying horizontally for at least 2 minutes.

Then place the clip in a beaker of fix, and agitate it per your usualy methods. Fish it out with tongs and see if the pre-fixed spot is clearer than the rest, every 30 seconds or so. When you can't see the differnece, the film has cleared; make note of this time, and fix twice as long to start.

Pull film from fix at the original clearing time after say 5 rolls, and see how long it is taking to clear on the re-used fix.

When the clearing time on the used solution is twice the original clearing time for film I usually toss it into the awaiting HHW disposal, or use it a bit longer as part of the fix 1 print bath, unless it has been used for tmax and is stained with the pinkish dye.
 

el wacho

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i'm looking for that 'clearing of the film' in that golden rule 'twice the clearing of the film' :tongue:
 

2F/2F

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With two bath fixing, I fix for twice the clearing time in each bath, with a four minute minimum (two in each bath). It may be dumb, but I cannot bring myself to fix for under four minutes; it is probably just force of habit. The second fixer clearing time does not change with use, but the first fixer time does. Therefore when the first fixer time reaches four minutes (causing total time to reach six minutes), I get rid of the first bath (by stowing it for eventual and proper disposal at the local hazardous waste facility), I move the second bath into its place, and I make a new second bath.

With one bath fixing, I fix for three times the clearing time, or four to five minutes; I do whichever is less time.
 

Steve Smith

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So what are you looking for when you fix BY INSPECTION?

Probably what I do. Open up the tank after a few minutes to see how it's going then double or triple the amount of time it has taken to clear.


Steve.
 

Q.G.

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That's what everyone else does: fixing by time. Time based on test. Isn't it?
 
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There has been so much discussion on film fixing on this forum that I'm surprised, frankly, that there are so many "methods" that deviate so far from established, standard practice.

I'm not the real expert here on the forum (for that, search on posts by PE, Ian Grant, and Ralph Lambrecht, just to name a few) but, I'll try to give the essence of what I've learned from them and other sources.

For starters, the "fix film for twice the clearing time" rule is valid, generally, and as a starting point. The clearing time, by the way, is easily observed by doing clip tests as described above (place a drop of fix on the film emulsion side, wait 30 sec., fix as normal while observing and note the time the clear spot is no longer visible). Twice this time is the minimum time the film should be fixed.

With fresh fixer, this results in times that are often significantly shorter than the manufacturers' recommended times. That's because the manufacturers' times include a generous fudge factor for fix that is near exhaustion. And, because it really doesn't hurt your film to fix longer than minimum, it's better to err on the side of longer to be safe (Note: this is not so with fiber-base prints!). Generally, 3-4x the manufacturer's recommended fixing time will do no damage whatsoever (i.e., 10-30 minutes of fixing time depending on fixer type and film), and, if I recall correctly, was even advocated by Kodak and others for fixing T-Max films to get rid of the pink cast.

You should do a clip test before each batch of film fixed in a given mix of fixer to determine the new (longer) fixing time for the next batch. As the fixer approaches exhaustion, the fixing time will approach the manufacturer's recommendation.

There are a couple of things to consider when calculating the fixing time that modify the "twice the clearing time" rule. First, the clip test does not take into account the exhaustion of the fixer as fixing progresses. This is negligible if you do a clip test and then process a relatively small amount of film in a large amount of fixer. However, if you clip test fresh fixer and then use a small quantity of that fix to process a large amount of film, the fixer will weaken as fixing proceeds, effectively increasing the average clearing time and, therefore, the total fixing time. If you do a clip test after fixing, and find that twice the clearing time then is greater than the time you fixed the film, you have underfixed (return the film to the fixer and fix longer). This is one good reason for a "fudge factor."

Second, modern T-grain films and some newer emulsion formulations contain much more silver iodide than "traditional emulsions." Many recommend three times the clearing time for such films (T-Max and Delta films). Since it can't hurt...

The second part of the "twice the clearing time" rule is that you should discard the fixer when the clearing time for a given film reaches twice that of the same film in fresh fixer. This is a good (and perhaps the best practical) measure of fixer exhaustion. However, it means doing a clip test after fixing batches of film that have a chance of having exhausted the fixer. Following manufacturers' capacity recommendations is also good, but usually more wasteful, since the manufacturers have built in a generous safety factor.

Fixer builds up by-products rather quickly; this significantly shortens its life. The exhaustion of fixer due to this build up depends more on the total volume of the solution than the dilution of the fixer. A rather concentrated fix will reach twice the clearing time for a given film well before the fixing agents themselves are depleted due to this build-up.

Using "twice the clearing time" to determine fixer exhaustion yields negatives with an acceptable level of residual silver (fixer by-products that won't wash out) for "general use," or "commercial use." If processing for optimum permanence, the fixer capacity is less than this and, usually, another fixing method is used (see below.)

If you are interested in getting the most out of your fixer, there are a couple of strategies. The first is to use a two-bath fixing scheme, fixing for twice the fixing time in fresh fix in each bath. To get the most economy from this, you must have a large enough through-put to be able to use the first bath to exhaustion (twice the clearing time) and then replace it with the second bath (which is still relatively fresh) and be able to do this through a few cycles. This also generally yields negatives that have a significantly smaller amount of residual silver than the single-bath method does. (This would be of interest to those processing negatives for optimum permanence.)

In light of the above, I like to fix with a generous "fudge factor" to ensure that proper fixing is being done. I usually fix in two baths, 2x clearing time in each bath for "traditional" films and 3x clearing time in each for T-grain films.

Another strategy is to use a more dilute fixing solution (and fix for appropriately longer times). This results in a greater percentage of the fixing agents present being used before the build-up of by-products kills the fixer. It won't yield "cleaner" negs like the two-bath method unless you discard this more dilute bath well before the "twice the clearing time" limit has been reached.

When I have only a few negatives to process, often use a single bath of rapid fix at "print strength" (e.g., 1+9 for Ilford Rapid Fix) and use the fix to well "below capacity."

There are some who favor a very dilute fix used one-shot. The problem here is determining the minimum amount of fixing agents needed for a given area of film. If you are willing to do the testing, and have the patience to sit through the longer fixing times needed with dilutions of 1+20 or more, this is likely the most economical way to use fixer and yields negatives with a very low level of residual silver.

There are lots of threads on the above methods and lots more details, but, please, can we agree on the basics:

1) how to find a minimum fixing time for a given film (clearing time x 2 or longer).
2) when to toss the fixer (clearing time x 2 or less).
3) fixing longer up to a point does no damage and is good insurance. (So, you can, and I think should, build in a reasonable fudge factor).

And that:

1) fixing film by inspection (i.e., just until it clears) does not fully fix the film.
2) using exhausted fixer, even for a long time, will not give you fully fixed film.
3) doing clip tests before and after each batch of film fixed is a reliable way of determining a) fixing time and b) fixer exhaustion. (So, use it.)

Finally, following the manufacturers' recommendations for times and through-put (i.e., capacity in x number of rolls, etc. per liter of solution) are good guidelines and take all the above into consideration along with a safety factor and will yield fully-fixed negatives with a generally acceptable level of residual silver 99.9% of the time. If you aren't going to do clip tests, then at least follow the directions.

Happy Fixing

Doremus Scudder
www.DoremusScudder.com
 
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RobertV

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Testing your fix (with PotassiumIodide - fix tester) on 2g/ltr. will give you enough security for a good fixer. 3g/ltr. Ag+ is allowed for film fix.

When the film is clear, the fix process is in fact finished. So 2x clear time is a good regular fix time.

A big overfix is not good for the film. But under fix is even worser because the negatives will not stay good. A clear time in combination with the fixer test will give you all parameters which is necessary for a good fixing time.
 

Ian Grant

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When the film is clear, the fix process is in fact finished. So 2x clear time is a good regular fix time.

Not correct, there may still be semi-soluble Silver-Thiosulphate intermediary complexes which need longer in the fixer for their reactions to complete. These won't wash out and will breakdown causing staining if a film (or paper) is taken from fixer immediately after clearing.

Ian
 
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Thanks Mr. Scudder for such a informative post. There's always conflicting information out there about rules and procedures. I first heard about the rule in one of David Vestal's books. Checked out your website. You have some awesome images.

Best,
Don
 

wogster

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Does anybody follow the rule of fixing film twice the time it takes for the film to clear? And am I risking fogging my negatives when the emulsion hasn't cleared and appears milky? Or should I just fix film for 5 minutes in all cases? :confused:

I think the general rule, do a clip test with fresh fixer, write the clearing time on the bottle, double that for your fixing time. Note, different films need different fixing time, for example T grain films need longer then non-T grain films.
If you use several films, you should clip test all of them to see the differences. If using multiple films, clip test the one that takes the longest, use that as your fixing time.

Each time you start a new session, repeat the clip test, when the clearing time has doubled for the same film, toss the working fixer and mix a new batch. You should clip test the newly mixed fixer, the time should match before if it's the same fixer. This
also makes sure you didn't mess up mixing the fixer or that the concentrate is dead. I do a test with fresh developer mixes too, if you drop a clip into fresh developer in the light, it should turn black within a few seconds.




The key to fixing is you really want the shortest fixing time that does the job, the double the clear time is long enough to make sure the fixer has done it's job, but is short enough that the fixer will not attack the image or make for extended wash time requirements.
 
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