Tetenal E6

[Jan Brittenson]

Anyone know what the difference is between the 3-bath and 6-bath kits? Any difference in archivability of the processed film? Tone or color? Grain? The 3-bath kit seems to suggest Fuji films need an extra 15% in the first developer, does this apply to the 6-bath also? There doesn't seem to be a lot of into about the 6-bath on Jobo USA's website...

I can't be the first to wonder about this...?

 

[Thilo Schmid]

Jan,
I found out that the 3-bath kit is only truly E6-compatible, if you process film of the same brand a time. Mixing e.g. Fuji and Kodak causes a slight magenta cast on the Kodak film. This is not the case with the 6-bath process. So as long as you don't mix brands, the 3-bath process will be as good as the 6-bath one.

 

[L Gebhardt]

Thilo, thanks for that bit of info. That expains why some of my sheets of Kodak film have a magenta cast. I have some older EPP and it seems to need to same time as the Fuji stuff so I have run it together. Do you know if that also applies to reusing the chemicals for EPP after Fuji - I assume so?

 

[Thilo Schmid]

Do you know if that also applies to reusing the chemicals for EPP after Fuji - I assume so?

If a color cast happen, the CD stage is out of ph-balance and it is very critical for that. So developing the Fujis after the Kodaks does (obvoiusly) not matter. But I would recommend to process only one brand in 3-Bath-E6. Better split your stock solution to process different brands.

 

[middlecalf]

Thilo-
Is the magenta color cast obvious (and in what tones)? I've exclusively used the 3-bath for all of my chromes, and I've mixed various Fuji and Kodak films in different combinations (not intentionally, just in consideration of economics). I've not noticed any color casting as described. And no apparent color cross over when printing, either (on Ilfochrome). I use a Jobo system, 38 deg. temp and same time for all films. I rate Velvia at 40 ASA because it seems to need a little more exposure (and I prefer less development to avoid contrast increase). Is everyone adding the additional time necessary after the first batch is run (I do)?

Paul

 

[Thilo Schmid]

Paul,
I have to admit that my statement should not be taken too general. Water quality, e.g., might affect this as well as other factors (age of chemistry, spreading to other process stages, etc.). But I can easily reproduce this with, e.g. Provia 100F and E200. The magenta (or magenta-red) cast on the Ektachrome is clearly visible on the light table, but can be filtered on reversal or digital prints (no crossovers). I've not tested all possible combinations of Fuji and Kodak (or other brand) slide film, but made this expericence a while back and avoid processing different brands in Tetenal E-6 3-bath since then.

 

[DKT]

Anyone know what the difference is between the 3-bath and 6-bath kits? Any difference in archivability of the processed film? Tone or color? Grain? The 3-bath kit seems to suggest Fuji films need an extra 15% in the first developer, does this apply to the 6-bath also? There doesn't seem to be a lot of into about the 6-bath on Jobo USA's website...

I can't be the first to wonder about this...?

Basically the 6 step process gives you more control than the 3 step in that with the latter--certain steps are consolidated for simplicity. Almost all of the corrective actions in E6 apply to the replenished 6 step process. With one-shot 6 step E6--you can do some slight corrections mostly with pH and specific gravity that might be needed for certain types of processing such as continuous rotary tube agitation etc. The 3 step kits might be the easiest overall to use, but they would offer the least amount of control.

As for longevity? When most of the manufacturers ditched the formaldehyde based stabilizers---they went over to a Final Rinse that is very much like a wetting agent more or less. In the "new" Kodak E6--the stabilization part takes place in the Pre-Bleach and is triggered by carryover color developer. In some types of reversal processing--old Kodak E6, Fuji CR56 (unless it's been changed??)--they still use a stabilizer, and there's a wash in between CD and Conditioner (which has been eliminated from the current Kodak E6)...so--this is probably overly confusing, but there *are* differences.

As for the color biasing of Kodak & Fuji? You *should* be able to run any type of chrome film together, just as you *should* be able to use the same First Developer time. The point of E6 is to try for a standard process--although this is a moot point if you only process one type of film for yourself. Personally I would suggest trying to do a standard process as best you can & try to make it as routine as possible--i.e. the same way every time.

Where I work, we process mostly Fuji with some Kodak--and use a std. First dev. time based off control strips using one-shot Kodak 6 step E6. I've read the claim by Jobo that Fuji needs extra time--and this makes no sense whatsoever to me--because you should adjust the film speed accordingly back against a standard process. The Fuji version of the Kodak Q Lab is called an Oasis lab. The Oasis labs use Kodak made control strips in Fuji CR56 chemistry. My point is--it doesn't matter what film you run--the process is the same.

HOWEVER---Fuji films will shift on agreen-magenta bias depending on Color Dev pH and Kodak will run yellow-blue. you can adjust the pH by adding either sulfuric acid or sodium hydroxide to the CD in small amounts to correct. As was mentioned above--water quality is a big factor, but if you mix & store your E6, be aware that CD pH can drift as it sits--it usually becomes more acidic.


hope this helps--

KT

 

[DKT]

Paul,
I But I can easily reproduce this with, e.g. Provia 100F and E200. The magenta (or magenta-red) cast on the Ektachrome is clearly visible on the light table,.

One thing to try would be to extend the final wash cycles....we process *alot* of Provia 100F and used to do E200 (not in awhile)--but my experience with these 2 films is that they will take a magenta cast that can be washed out--it has been explained to me by a Kodak tech as related to leuco-cyan dye retention. At any rate, you can almost soak it ---it will turn the Final Rinse magenta.

it's important to figure out if it's magenta or red though--since they can mean different things in E6. Magenta in Fuji, could be very well be pH of the CD, but red in both films might mean a bleach problem, pre-bleach, fixer, uhm....oxidation problems in CD or even wash temp...


fun process, so much to go wrong.

KT

 

[middlecalf]

I agree, there is a lot that can wrong, but there also seems to be a lot of stability in the process (but my experience in E-6 is only with the Tetenal 3-bath). For instance, unintentionally once I mixed the 500ml kit as if it were a 1-liter kit. Fortunately, I figured this out before running film through it. But, being the tightwad I am, I processed some film through it anyway, extending the time (I can't remember the exact increase, but I don't believe it was simply doubling the normal time) and lo and behold, no noticeable difference in density, color, or contrast from other proper developments. (I shoot mostly scenics and architecture, so maybe color is not as critical as say portraiture). Another time I pre-soaked the transparency film (EGAD!) which is what I do with my B&W film (sometimes I'm like a robot in my dark-closet). Realizing that I'd "swelled" the emulsion with water, I simply WAG'd that I'd need a little more development time, so I added about 15secs more and presto, no noticeable difference. Hmmm, lots of variables. But lots of fun, too.

 

[DKT]

well, E6 used to have a prewet step--but mostly this has been eliminated with the newer process. If you do use a prewet still, mostly they recommend kicking in more time to the first developer. Kodak and others don't recommend the pre-wet, because it can cause inconsistencies with speed & color.

what I don't understand is how you can mix up E6 at half strength and *not* have any problems....It could be that you're not shooting anything with dominant neutral tones, but you would have one messed up control strip for sure....

 

[middlecalf]

DKT-
I was equally surprised not to have had a problem with the half strength chemicals, but again, for the landscape shots there wasn't anything that struck me as out of the ordinary (color, density). If I understand the process, the color developer and bleach/fix steps are "to completion" steps, so maybe thats why they weren't impacted because I added enough time. In fact, when I (normally!) use E-6 per the instructions, I'm not all that careful with these steps, as long as there long enough. I tend to be most anal about the developer step. Beats me, though. If the stuff was really dirt cheap (like B&W process), maybe I'd play around and experiment with different variables. It would be interesting to really know if the stuff could be used reliably for all applications at reduced concentrations (aka would save some big dollars in the long run) and longer times. But for now, I'm chalking it up to luck, and won't (intentionally!) do it again.

 

[Jan Brittenson]

Thanks! Great info!!!

Here's another silly question... Can I mix the first developer as I use it? For instance, if I get a 1L kit, can I mix 500ml first dev and use within 2 weeks, then later mix the remainder in a second batch? Or has it started deteriorating as soon as the stock bottle is opened? Would the butane lighter trick discussed in other threads be of use here?

Edited:
Never mind, I found the Private Preserve wine preservers and ordered some. Something that can preserve both my wines and chemistry, now there's a fine product!

I'll try it on a 1L kit, and if that works OK I'll try it on a bigger kit.

 

[Thilo Schmid]

Can I mix the first developer as I use it?

Of course, you can. I always do, because larger kits are cheaper per run. The smaller kits (0,5l) do sometimes contain foil pouches that should be used up at once. Protection gas is only necessary for the developers.

 

[middlecalf]

I have split the 1L kits with success. Not fully confirmed, but the pro-level photo store I frequent (Glazer's in Seattle) indicates that the 500ml Tetenal kits are discontinued (Kodak dropped theirs a while ago). Looks like we're going to have to get creative if a small batch user (aka me).

"Private Preserve wine preservers and ordered some". What are these and from where ordered?

 

[Jan Brittenson]

"Private Preserve wine preservers and ordered some". What are these and from where ordered?

Bought mine from Wine Enthusiast
Product home page: http://www.privatepreserve.com

It was mentioned in the Chemistry thread IIRC.

 

[middlecalf]

Ordered! Thanks!