Tetenal E6, yellow cast

jernejk · May 29, 2017

Just developed my 5th film, and it came out with a yellow cast (It doesn't seem ruined, more like using a warming filter).

The working solution is about 2 weeks old. The film was exposed about a year ago, I have no clue about expiration. The previously developed films were shot about at the same time and don't have the cast.

To my knowledge I did processing the same way as with previous films. Maybe I was a bit more "relaxed" with washing water temperature, but not the bath.

According to some sources the error is either due to pH or temperature of CD. I mixed the chems with distilled water, and previous films were ok, so I doubt that, unless it's been contaminated through the processing. Then again, temperature deviation also shouldn't be much different as with previous films.

Thoughts?

Edit: hmm... it seems as if the yellow stain is disappearing as the film is drying. Also, by coincidence I touched the clear base of the previous film with wet hands and the touched part turned yellow... is that normal??

georgegrosu · May 30, 2017

Color films or b&w films look different when is wet or dry.
The wet negative color have a big fog than dry films.
The color slides dry have a big fog that wet films, but fog densities have lower values than the color negative and are less noticeable.
Perhaps your 5th film had neutral backgrounds where you could easily notice the color difference.
If there were mixed colors, you would not have go your eyes.
A practical application of your observation is printer with wet gate for the negative (cine) .
This method can remove some of the scratches on the negative (Due to the perchlorethylene solution having a refractive index close to that of the film support) and get extra details in black.
http://www.kitmondo.com/bell-and-howell-16mm-model-c-contact-printer-with-wet-gate/ref520003

George

jernejk · May 30, 2017

Comparing basically the same scene of my 5th film to another roll developed through the same chems, there is a noticable difference. In both cases the film is Agfa precisa. The kicker however is, that I actually like the slides with this yellow cast more - it's as if everything was shot at the golden hour

Without knowing the caus I'm not sure I dare to run another film through this set of chems though. More cast would not look good anymore. I'll get some pH test strips to check the color developer and then decide if I want to gamble or not.

georgegrosu · May 30, 2017

As far as I understand with my modest English, your exact question was:
"Where have I been wrong with the film 5 that has gone so well?"
This was my boss's joke.
Tests on color films I make with a color scale.

George

thuggins · May 30, 2017

My understanding from other posts is that the Agfa film is Provia. If that is the case, then a bit of warming does wonders for the appearance. However, that is something you would want to control explicitly, not randomly occurring during processing.

There have been a number of postings here about color issues and Tetenal. My experience (which I've posted elsewhere in this forum) is that the Tetenal kit works great when used anywhere close to the instructions, and the results are as good as a pro lab. But the instructions are absolute crap. They make no attempt at all to address just the sort of issue you ran into. There is an obscure bit referring to "changes in alkalinity" and "colour balance", but I couldn't make heads or tails of what you were supposed to do to fix anything.

It seems doubtful that the pH of your color developer changed after the fourth roll. Try running roll #6 thru and see if the problem repeats. If not, it was likely the result of either the film or some subtle change in the way the processing was done.

destroya · May 30, 2017

with the tetenal chems, you have to adjust the times in the 1st and color developer when you get over 4 rolls done. I think you add add 20 or 30 seconds to each time. did you do that? maybe they are slightly under developed, but I would think that wouldn't give a strong yellow cast.

jernejk · May 31, 2017

I just developed the 6th (and final) roll, and it has the same yellow tint. Need to wait for it to dry to compare to #5, but it similar or slightly more. This film was new and shot recently, so film is ok. Must be something with my CD. It's been 2 weeks, so maybe the working solutions have gone bad?

georgegrosu · May 31, 2017

I found these images on the internet made on AgfaPhoto CT precisa 100 Developed by Arka Lab in Paris (Great Lab with friendly service)
Your pictures look worse than these?
https://www.flickr.com/photos/m_o_b81/10982064645/in/photostream/
I remember that some time before I had to develop some color slide films.
A friend asked me to develop a Agfa precisa.
My color slide films looked good, and Agfa precisa have some photos with lighter image portions where she felt a plus of yellow.
On the Agfa film, most of the photograms looked normal, with no color debalans or dominant color.
If it is a process issue then the malfunction mast occurs on all the photos.
Probably if you put some photos, things would be clearer and more accurate.

Rudeofus · Jun 1, 2017

jernejk said:
I just developed the 6th (and final) roll, and it has the same yellow tint. Need to wait for it to dry to compare to #5, but it similar or slightly more. This film was new and shot recently, so film is ok. Must be something with my CD. It's been 2 weeks, so maybe the working solutions have gone bad?

If your film has excessive density in some points, there is a good chance that FD is the culprit, not CD. Assuming you have pitch black image frames there is no reason to doubt your CD. An FD which has become less active, on the other side, can quite easily explain that extra density. If longer FD time, as has already been suggested in this thread, won't solve the issue, then you should start with fresh chems.

jernejk · Jun 1, 2017

I'm actually getting a bit confused over the whole issue, as I noticed today that film leader of the 5th film which had yellow tint before now seems clear. I need to check leader n the 6th once it's really dried.

I'll post comparison photos of the same scene, but probably not before next week.

Rudeofus · Jun 1, 2017

That's something I have noticed with many E6 films: they look very brownish while wet, and nice and clear when they have fully dried. The craziest part, which seems to defy all laws of physics I am aware of: if you hold this wet film against a strong light source, it looks very brownish, almost like incomplete bleaching. Hold that same wet strip against a light gray area, and there will be no brown hue. Please don't ask me why, or even better: someone please explain how that is even possible.

georgegrosu · Jun 1, 2017

Rudeofus, you probably have a good experience with processing films, which I have often noticed in your interventions.
I am doing photo processing at home, as an amateur.
The cine knowledge where I have worked helps me find various solutions to some of the problems I encounter.
In relation to the appearance of wet / dry films, I can only assume:
1. The dyes that form (yellow, purple, cyan) have different aspects when they are wet and when are dry.
It's like painted (let's say it's washable), when the paint dries, the wall has a different shade.
2. Colorants are dispersed in gelatin which also changes its appearance when it is wet to dry.
Wet gelatin is not very transparent, with a more opaque appearance.
3. In connection with the disappearance of the brown color of the film when viewed in the strong gray light I think:
- Brown is complementary color to blue (light gray).
Brown with blue (gray) should give a darker gray.
Because the gray light is more open, the visual sensation will be to remove the brown dominance of the film.
It's just a supposition of mine.

George

jernejk · Jun 1, 2017

I measured the ph of color developer and it's 11.8 +- the precision of my ph tester (which is not specified, but i guess it's somewhere between 0.2-0.5). I have no clue however what the proper or refernece pH should be, I guess I'll compare it the next time when I mix a fresh solution and see the results.

jernejk · Jun 1, 2017

Here are some details comparing 4th and 5th film. Actually I'm not sure anymore which one has a tint. Maybe it is the case that the 4th film has green cast?
I shot these details with DSLR on tungsten, so they are not color balanced and are not what I actually see projected, just compare the relatve values of the white hat (same location and light).

That said, I really like how #5 and #6 turned out. Specially #6, it's the first film I shot using incident light meter, and it makes a difference. I hope my next batch is closer to this warmer look as to the #4 cold look, because it's really, really great.

georgegrosu · Jun 1, 2017

Thank you for the posted pictures, but from a technical point of view it does not help me to interpret the problem.
The frame of film 5 seem to be made with more sun than the frame of film 4, or is it because you to take more than your front lawn?
When I analyze a film, I look at the density of black, white density, and photo digits printed by the film maker.
For me, I make photographed the color slide placed on a monitor, along with a Kodak LAD scale from computer.
Reduce the Kodak LAD to the size of a photograme.
Put the two slide 4 and 5 along with Kodak LAD.
Delete the image portions you wanted to not see, and so we also had information with a clear reference.

George

jernejk · Jun 2, 2017

georgegrosu said:
The frame of film 5 seem to be made with more sun than the frame of film 4, or is it because you to take more than your front lawn?

The light was the same. This is in the mountains under bright sun, no clouds. I don't know how I measured the light, so exposure could be different. I think I used EOS 5 and it could be that I was metering against the white hat, compensating +2 to make it white. The light however is coming a bit from the side on the first picture and is more frontal in the second. Comparing camera left part of the hat in the first picture and frontal in the second, I think the exposure is the same (very few details visible on the hat in both places).
Disregard the grass, it's not the same in both photos.

To make comparison easier, I've color balanced against the first image. Using color picker, RGB values on the upper hat are balanced (218,218,218), but on the below one they are not(R:217, G:216, B:211). Which confirms what my eyes have been telling me: slight yellow tint (R+G=Y) relative to the first image. It could very well be that it's actually the case that the first image has a blue tint in absolute terms.

georgegrosu said:
For me, I make photographed the color slide placed on a monitor, along with a Kodak LAD scale from computer.

Does that work reliably? My monitor is not color calibrated, so I would be opening a whole new can of worms...

BMbikerider · Jun 2, 2017

Is it possible to compare a clear portion of a film involved with this forum topic with another where the problem doesn't exist? That will go a long way to establish if the film base is affected and nothing to do with the processing.

The last time I used Tetenal (A long while ago) included in the box was a guide to indicate what colour shift problems may be caused by. Is this now omitted?

BMbikerider · Jun 2, 2017

On your behalf I contacted Tetenal in UK and when I described the problem they were not able to diagnose the cause unless they saw the slides in front of them. They did however say if you were using the 3 bath kit it may be problems with temperature. There should not be a problem with films exposed some time before they were processes They gave me the web site address of tetenal in Germany and if you contacted them direct that may be your best course of action www.tetenal.com. This is written in German but there is a tab on the main page to translate the text into English.

georgegrosu · Jun 2, 2017

It's not really important to calibrate your monitor how to see the differences between your films and a reference such as Kodak LAD.
Images need not be corrected to see the real differences between them.
I see a big correction between the first batch of pictures and the second batch.
Again, open the Kodak LAD image at a size as a frame.
Open alongside LAD and a white page that you put the two photograms from films 4 and 5 .
Take a digital picture of the LAD and the two 4 and 5 films stills and remove the areas of the picture you want to not see.
Go.
You have to put 4 and 5 pieces of film on white instead of cuts and take pictures.

George

georgegrosu · Jun 2, 2017

To no longer have emotions I shows you exactly how to make Kodak LAD with a film should look comparative.
To get a better idea, even if a monitor is not well calibrated (not catastrophe) is no problem.
LAD is given by the computer, and on the white of the monitor you put your films.
Photographs in digital the LAD and your films.
When I look at your digital photo I know how to correct the LAD to look normal.
Automatically and your pictures will be brought to values close to reality.

George

thuggins · Jun 2, 2017

Judging from the pictures you posted, I'm tempted to say you had problems with the first four rolls but by #5 they were turning out great! ;-) If the Agfa film is Provia, it certainly has a blue cast. Not knowing how high those mountains are, it is difficult to judge the light. But higher altitudes do have bluer light. In any case, that first shot does not look right to me; the more yellowish version looks much better.

I just did my 7th roll and while the in-camera part had some issues, the development came out fine. The chemicals are right at 2 weeks old. Although Tetenal says six rolls per batch, I'm aiming for 8 by increasing all the times proportionally. From what I've seen so far, 8 will be no problem and it wouldn't surprise me if you could easily get ten (although times really start getting long).

This is a tough one to judge. Although it is my first try with the Tetenal kit, it seems pretty forgiving. I use a water bath for temperature control, but my two thermometers differ by about one degree (one is a probe type and the other infrared) so I just aim to get close. This may be a silly question, but are you sure everything was the same in-camera? No filters, the same lens, etc? Just a UV filter can make a big difference in the right (i.e. wrong) light. And in testing lenses I've found that different lenses can give very different colors.

thuggins · Jun 2, 2017

BMbikerider said:
The last time I used Tetenal (A long while ago) included in the box was a guide to indicate what colour shift problems may be caused by. Is this now omitted?

Your definition of "a guide" must be extremely charitable. As I've noted elsewhere, the instructions that come with the Tetenal kit are absolute crap. If it weren't for the fact that the important info is pretty much all numbers the instructions would be worthless. The little snippet on color shifts is incomprehensible. You can surmise that it has something to do with pH (although they never actually use the term "pH"), but when it comes to figuring out what causes which problem with what film, and how to go about correcting it, the instructions might as well be printed in Klingon.

BMbikerider · Jun 2, 2017

Further reading about processing E6 has shown that inconsistent temp can produce a yellow cast, usually if the temp is more than that recommended. I seem to remember a Fuji Velvia I processed well before the millenium was also also had a heavy yellow cast but I put it down at the time to chemical contamination.

I have just come accross this on a photogrpahy forum:-

E6 PROCESSING FAULT CHART
Very thin and pale Time in 1st dev. too Check timer & pour quicker long. Temp in 1st Dev. Check Thermometer. too high. Too much Try adding 1gm of CD3. Citrazinic acid in CD. Check % solution. Too little Iodide in 1st Dev. Rinse between reversal and Col. Dev.

Too Dark and dense Time in 1st Dev. too short Check timer & wash well. Temp in 1st Dev. too low. See if tank is cooling Too little Citrazinic Acid while processing. in Col, Dev. Add «gm to Col. Dev.

Reddish blacks Col. Dev. is old or cold. Warm it up a bit or scrap. Bleach not aerated enough. Aerate bleach 1 hour. Red fogging by stray light. Check d/room for LED`s.

Magenta Cast pH of Col. Dev. too low. Re-check pH. Contamination.

Blue Cast Over development in 1st Dev. pH of Col. DEv. too high. Re-check pH. Reversal agitation too much. Agitate for 1st 15secs only. Col. Dev. Temp. too high. Check temp. in bottle.

Yellow Cast pH of Col. Dev. too high. Re-check pH. Col. Dev. temp. too low.

Green Cast Reversal bath exhausted replace reversal bath or oxidised. or reduce agitation. pH of Col. Dev. too low. Re-check pH.

Red Cast Inadequate aeration of bleach. Aerate both. Inadequate aeration of fixer. 1st wash temp. too high. Check water temp.

Bronzey Dark areas pH of bleach too high. Reduce pH.

Muddy highlights Thiocyanate in 1st Dev. Check solution for inactive. extra water. (see notes).

georgegrosu · Jun 2, 2017

BMbikerider, the information you have presented is quite brief and indicative for people who have a good experience with the color reversible process.
Do you have a more complete overview of E6 processing errors?
In cinematography there is something similar cine color slides process VNF-1:
Effects of Mechanical & Chemical Variations in Process VNF-1
http://www.kodak.com/KodakGCG/uploa..._en_motion_support_processing_h2412_h2412.pdf
Here are graphs of densities based on time, temperature, substance concentration, impurities.
In connection with your highlighted phrase, the increased yellow color is due to the increased ph to the color revelator - is presented at page 12.9.
The yellow color increased due to the lower temperature of the color revelator is not confirmed and does not seem logical.
When it lowers a temperature I do not see how to increase density to color development?
Perhaps the text has some fragmentation.

George

jernejk · Jun 2, 2017

BMbikerider said:
On your behalf I contacted Tetenal in UK and when I described the problem they were not able to diagnose the cause unless they saw the slides in front of them. They did however say if you were using the 3 bath kit it may be problems with temperature.

Thanks, that is very kind! Hm.. temperature. Actually The first few rolls (1 or 2, don't remember) I used my old digital thermometer which is not very accurate (+-2 deg c). i bought a new one which should be in +-0.5 deg C. When the new one is showing 100F, the old one shows 99.6.

georgegrosu said:
LAD is given by the computer, and on the white of the monitor you put your films.

I'll try this next week if I have time.. this weekend I'm shoting more film

thuggins said:
Judging from the pictures you posted, I'm tempted to say you had problems with the first four rolls but by #5 they were turning out great! ;-)

I agree! I actually like how last two rolls turned out.

thuggins said:
Although Tetenal says six rolls per batch, I'm aiming for 8 by increasing all the times proportionally.

I'm very interested in hearing the results, please do report.

BMbikerider said:
Yellow Cast pH of Col. Dev. too high. Re-check pH. Col. Dev. temp. too low.

That's why I've checked pH. But temperature... hmm.. my first film were developed at 100F according to my old thermometer. Which according to the new one would be >100. So my 5th and 6th films definitely were processed at colder temps than the first few (I don't exactly remember the order and when I got new thermometer). But maybe this explains things!

Tetenal E6, yellow cast

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