Starting out with b&w film

[agenkin]

Greetings:

I've decided to give b&w film a serious try. My objective is to start using 35mm film (have been a digital SLR shooter for a couple of years), develop it at home, and scan (I have professional film scanners at the university where I work); I'll consider manual printing later. I've read a lot of stuff in the last couple of weeks, and here's what I decided to start with. Could you have a brief look and tell me if I got everything essential covered? I mostly shoot available light street, but hope to start with B&W portraiture soon, and, perhaps, B&W landscapes. I'll continue to use my DSLR for colour and event photography, at least for now.

I'll be getting the following stuff for starters:
- Kodak Tri-X 400, Ilford HP5 Plus 400 - a few rolls of each
- Paterson Universal Tank with one reel
- A 27x30 changing bag
- A 30C thermometer
- What chemistry is better to start with for the above? I don't want to get in at the deep end right away, but would like something that is likely to give good results right away, to keep me as a happy film shooter. I'd rather pay a bit more and get something easier to use, but high quality, if this makes sense.

Thanks in advance for any input!

 

[RobLewis]

Hi-
I'm a relative rookie compared to many of the great artists here- but I started with Tri-X 400, I use D-76 to develop, Kodak Stop and Fixer. The d-76 and fixer are available in liter size powder forms, and a small bottle of stop concentrate will last a while.
Most will say choose one, and learn it inside out, then experiment with others as your experience progresses.

I also use plastic reel and tank- as many here will say, they are easier to use, but eventually, you'll want to go to stainless. (I don't exactly have the hands of a surgeon, so it's plastic for me)
I don't use a changing bag- lucky enough to be able to completely and easily black out my laundry room to use as darkroom.
I use a very high quality food thermometer- seems to work well enough. Eventually I may pony up the cash for a photo-grade thermo.

I think the only thing missing from your list of supplies- an old-school bottle opener to remove the lid of the film cartridge, a timer of some sort, scissors (all of which you probably already have) and you'll want some plastic sleeve-type 35mm negative holders for organization purposes.
Oh yeah- a measuring device or two that will measure in Milliliters. (Don't cross-contaminate the stop and D-76!)

Best of luck! Enjoy!

 

[Robert Hall]

Congrats on your foray into bw film. While those are great films to start with, I would recommend just using one film for a while until you start to get the hang of it. I think the HP-5 is a little more forgiving than Tri-X, but not by much. Both films are great and I use them both.

I would get a small bottle of HC-110 for starters, simply because you dont have to mix it. While it will do the job there are, in my opinion, better developers out there. I use PMK, but I would recommend X-Tol as well. Again, which ever one you go with, stick with it for a while until you start to see repeatable results. The HC will probably have a better shelf life as well.

Make sure you post some images, successes and failure. The trash can is the best tool for learning.

 

[jim appleyard]

Sounds like you're well on the way. Both TX and HP5 are fine films.

It would be hard to pick a bad dev for these films. You could go powder and get D-76. It's not hard to mix and is a cheap way to go.

Or, you could get HC-110 which is even easier to mix as it's a liquid concentrate and the concentrate lasts a LONG time.

You'll get lots of answers here, pick one dev and shoot several rolls of ONE kind of film as it may take several rolls to nail down times.

 

[agenkin]

Okay, a few more questions:

- Why is a stainless steel tank+reel better than plastic, and why does one need "hands of a surgeon" to use it?
- How do the so far recommended D76 and HC-100 of compare with regards to output contrast? I like the dynamic-looking higher contrast, which I am seeing in many film black and whites.

 

[Paul Howell]

HC 110 is a good choice for both TriX and HP5, I would mix the HC 100 in distilled water, use a stop bath some folks perfer a water rinse, Clayton makes an oderless Stop, rapid fix, a hypo clearing agent such as, Perma Wash or Orbit Bath, and a wetting agent in distilled water.

 

[RobLewis]

Okay, a few more questions:

- Why is a stainless steel tank+reel better than plastic, and why does one need "hands of a surgeon" to use it?
- How do the so far recommended D76 and HC-100 of compare with regards to output contrast? I like the dynamic-looking higher contrast, which I am seeing in many film black and whites.

Well, I exagerate- but it takes some practice to get the film loaded into a steel reel. I imagine it's second nature once you do it enough- It took me 20 minutes one time to get it loaded on, then I tried it with the lights off. Ha. Plastic is much easier- but may not last as long, and is harder to clean.

I can't comment on the d76 vs. HC-100. I've only used D-76. (I've only been at it about 8 or 9 months)

 

[Bob F.]

I'd go for liquid concentrates in your position: you don't really want to muck about mixing powders at this stage. Kodak's HC-110 or Ilford's DD-X are good starters for developer as already suggested (Ilford recommend DD-X for HP5).

Any stop bath will do but I'd suggest an odourless one as I'm guessing you will be using a bathroom or similar. Odourless stop uses citric acid (no smell at all) instead of the more common acetic acid (vinegar smell). Incidentally, don't be worried by the "acid" word as it is very weak: no stronger than table vinegar at working strength. Having said that, the concentrate is typically mixed 1+19 with water to make the working solution so be a little more careful with that when mixing with water. Always add acid to water (not water to acid) though even at this concentrated strength it's not really a problem.

Likewise, there are also low odour fixers which help help keep things smelling sweet... Ilfostop by Ilford is odourless and Tetenal and Fotospeed (amongst others) make low-odour fixers and stop baths.

Most developers have little odour. Sorry if I seem fixated on smell (!), but I assume you are sharing your space with others so keeping the pong down can avoid complaints ...

Contrast is generally controlled by development time - the longer you develop, the greater the contrast of the resulting negative. Whoever, more control is available when printing either after scanning or by choice of paper grade in the darkroom.

Have fun, Bob.

 

[hywel]

That's about what I started with, from the same background, a couple of years ago. Although you are one step ahead of me in having the changing bag, and I wish I'd got one earlier!

I started with the only chemistry I could get, and was more than happy. Look at all the recommendations you can get here: everything has its supporters and any of the mainstream products will give you that pleasure of hanging up your first negatives and seeing your pictures. But, as you're just starting, I'd stick with liquids: you have to have a little more commitment to be bothered to mix up the powders. The best criteria might be one that lasts a resonable time in a half filled bottle. The LC29 I started with does (although I don't think anyone, even Ilford thinks it's the best) and I'm told the DD-X I use now does as well, although I don't know because I shoot rather more these days!

My experience is also not to worry overly about EIs and personal development times to begin with if you are going to scan. I found that with the 'powers' of photoshop I could always get an acceptable picture. It was only when I went to a full darkroom and started printing with an enlarger that I found that I had to take more care and tailor my shooting and development to my printing.

Overall, make it easy for yourself, so that you never think, oh, it'll be too much trouble. Get started. Once in you'll begin to fine tune your process to suit your needs.

And welcome to the wonderful world of black and white.

Hywel

Oh, PS, get yourself a second reel, just in case you shoot a few extra shots. All the better if your tank takes two and if not, you can't reuse the plastic ones until they are dry.

 

[Fanshaw]

Well, I exagerate- but it takes some practice to get the film loaded into a steel reel. I imagine it's second nature once you do it enough- It took me 20 minutes one time to get it loaded on, then I tried it with the lights off. Ha. Plastic is much easier- but may not last as long, and is harder to clean.

I have been using the same plastic tank to develop monochrome films in D76 for over 30 years and the only cleaning it has needed is a rinse under the tap.

Fanshaw

 

[reub2000]

- Why is a stainless steel tank+reel better than plastic, and why does one need "hands of a surgeon" to use it?

The key to stainless steel reels is to use one in good condition and to bend the film correctly. I also hold mine up to my ear so I can easily hear if it's being reeled incorrectly. As my teacher Mr. Ware said, the film shouldn't "snap, crackle, or pop". If the film falls into the wrong grove, there is a good chance that further errors will happen as you reel the film and you can easily destroy half or more of a roll of film that way. I more often have problems when using my school's reels because they aren't in the best condition. I've been told that plastic is easier, but I've never tried it.

- How do the so far recommended D76 and HC-100 of compare with regards to output contrast? I like the dynamic-looking higher contrast, which I am seeing in many film black and whites.

Developing time, dilution, and agitation all have some effect on contrast and the shape of the curve. Ansel Adams documents much of these effects in the book "The Negative". I suggest that you fetch it from your library.

 

[jim appleyard]

Plastic reels are easier to load for lots of folks, but only give 2-dimensional agitation, whereas stainless gives 3-dimensional; or so the arguement goes. I have both and have seen no difference.

Actually, you can skip the stop bath and use tap water and then an alkaline fix like TF-4 from the Formulary.

Check some books out of the library while you're at it: Ansel Adams, "The Print", "The Negative" and Anchell and Anchell&Troop's "Cookbook" series. Lots of good info there.

 

[pschauss]

Since no one else has mentioned it, I would suggest a Hewes stainless steel reel. After years of using the old style (with the spike) and the new style Kinderman reels, I finally bought a Hewes reel. To use it you simply slip the hooks into the sprocket holes on the end of the film and start feeding it onto the reel. The hooks totally eliminate any problems with getting the film to feed straight.

BTW, as mentioned in other threads, the main reason for using stainless reels is that you can use them when they are wet and they have no moving parts to jam when the Photoflo clogs them up.

If you use a stainless reel, you will want to practice loading it with an expired roll of film or sacrifice a roll for the purpose.

 

[laverdure]

Diafine is probably the easiest developer to use. I usually recommend that to beginners. It requires no stop and is not very sensitive to time and temperature. As others have said, it's best to choose one film and use it until you know it well, and that should go for the developer as well. Plastic tanks are much easier to load. I'm thinking about switching back. To get the kind of contrast you're looking for, try overexposing a couple of stops. With most films you should be doing this anyway. When you become more comfortable developing, you can also "push" (overdevelop) your negatives, which will give them more contrast, speed, and grain. And then there's photoshop.

Nothing's really very hard in photography, technically, until you start getting nitpicky and superstitious, which seems to happen to most of us eventually. But put it off as long as possible and you'll be the better photographer for it. Definitely recommend you avoid Ansel Adams and the Cookbook at all costs, at least for a few years.

Welcome to film.

 

[Neal]

Dear Arkady,

I believe the equipment you've purchased will work well for you for years to come. HP5+ and Tri-X are also good chices as they are high quality products that have been used for many years to make wonderful photographs. The "best" chemicals are ones that are easy for you to obtain. Every film and developer combination seems to have at least one champion. ;>)

Finally, try and do some optical printing as soon as you can. Personally, I find darkoom work to be the most enjoyable part of the process.

Neal Wydra

 

[fschifano]

Okay, a few more questions:

- Why is a stainless steel tank+reel better than plastic, and why does one need "hands of a surgeon" to use it?
- How do the so far recommended D76 and HC-100 of compare with regards to output contrast? I like the dynamic-looking higher contrast, which I am seeing in many film black and whites.

Well, the stainless tanks and reels are not any better than the plastic variety and you don't need the hands of surgeon to use them either. I've been running film for more years than I care to remember, and the results coming out of either type of tank are the same, all other variables being the same. SS reels can be a little more difficult to load at first than high quality plastic reels, but you'll soon figure it out.

Check out this link from Kodak to see the contrast curves for Tri-X in several different developers: http://www.kodak.com/global/en/professional/support/techPubs/f4017/f4017.pdf

 

[rwyoung]

Greetings:

I'll be getting the following stuff for starters:
- Kodak Tri-X 400, Ilford HP5 Plus 400 - a few rolls of each
- Paterson Universal Tank with one reel
- A 27x30 changing bag
- A 30C thermometer
- What chemistry is better to start with for the above?
Thanks in advance for any input!

Warning, this get a little long and rambles a bit.

The films you mention are good. Quite forgiving of exposure and developing "errors". I say "error" in quotes because if you keep good notes, it isn't an error, it is a learning opporunity.

Long term, think about bulk loading your own.

The Paterson reels are good and so are the tanks but take care of them. The plastic reels and tanks aren't quite as rugged as the stainless steel ones. But none of them should be used for driving nails either. Consider getting two reels and a two reel tank. But if memory serves, the Paterson tank is already a two reel tank unless you get one of the great big ones.

It has been my experience that the lids on the Paterson tanks don't seal all that well so be sure that you hold it firmly when inverting!

And keep everthing clean, rinse well when finished. Plastic reels need to be 100% dry before loading film. This is where having extra reels is nice. I have one Paterson tank but 4 reels. But you can start with a single tank and a single reel. Just be prepared to wait a while between rolls.

As to chemistry, D76 is pretty universal stuff and cheap. But you will need some good, dark glass or heavy plastic bottles for storage. You can't mix the powder as needed. But if you go with a liquid like HC-110, Rodinal, DD-X, etc then you can mix from concentrate if you use a "calibrated" eye dropper.

Stop bath can be as simple as two rinses with clean water. Or you can use white vinegar 1 part to 3 parts water. Or you can buy a stop bath with indicator. Your call. Most of the time I just use two rinses of distilled water.

Fixer, same arguments powder vs liquid. With powder, you need to mix it all up at once and decant into bottles. A good idea is to use a few smaller bottles and fill them all the way up. Then work from one bottle at a time until it is exhausted. Either count rolls and watch the calendar or get a small bottle of hypo check.

Consider also getting some hypo clearing agent (HCA). I use the Kodak stuff and mix it into a pint bottle (stock concentration) then mix it 1+4 and use it one-shot. This will GREATLY shorten your wash times.

Google around for "Ilford method". If you use an HCA (Kodak, Heyco, Permawash, etc) you can save yourself a lot of time and water.

You can make a final rinse in distilled water or add a few drops of Photo-Flo (Kodak brand name, other stuff exists) before hanging the film to dry. Distilled water helps prevent spots (disolved solids in the water) and the Photo-Flo reduces the surface tension. Hang the film to dry someplace quiet, no foot traffic to kick up dust. Again, the bathroom, a line rigged over the sink or bathtub, is great.

I don't use a changing bag for 35mm stuff except in an emergency. A bathroom with no exterior windows or a closet. If necessary you can light proof the door or heck, just wait until the sun goes down and turn out the lights in adjacent rooms.

A very good site to refer to for times and temps is www.digitaltruth.com and their massive developing chart. Keep in mind that these things are ALWAYS recomendations. Not gospel. The very best thing you can do for yourself is to practice. Pick ONE film (lets say HP5+), ONE developer (lets say HC-110), one stop (H2O), one fixer (you get the point by now), one TEMPERATURE and one agitation method. Oh, did I mention TEMPERATURE? Look around for a nice photo thermometer. Bimetal spring types aren't very good. A glass/alcohol or electronic one is better. You can use hot and cold water baths to stablize chemistry temperatures. The most important is developer temp. In general, the others should be the same but so long as they are within a few degrees, it is "OK". You mention a 30C thermometer above but I'm not sure what you mean by that.

So, I have probably just exploded your budget and haven mentioned things like negative storage sleeves, or PEC Pads and barely scratched the surface of chemistry storage and mixing.

But fear not, you will be innundated by suggestions as time goes on. And remember, there are other sources for equipment and chemistry besides the camera shop, web and eBay. Consider prowling around Dollar Stores to find mixing vessels and small wash tubs for water tempering baths, inexpensive dishtowels, etc. Pharmacies sometimes have small measuring devices. And for chemistry, Google for Parodinal, Caffinol and Vitamin C developers...

Enjoy yourself and above all else, TAKE NOTES. If you don't write it down, it didn't happen!

Rob

 

[jim appleyard]

Definitely recommend you avoid Ansel Adams and the Cookbook at all costs, at least for a few years.

QUOTE]

Why?

 

[agenkin]

Thanks to all who replied! This is a lot more advice than could I hope for. I can't wait to put all these suggestions to use.

 

[laverdure]

Definitely recommend you avoid Ansel Adams and the Cookbook at all costs, at least for a few years.

QUOTE]

Why?

Great resources, but a bit esoteric for a beginner, don't you think? You don't give every kid who wants to cook a Harold McGee and a Good Luck, at least not until they've got pasta down. Besides, any APUGer worthy of the name'll find his way down the steep and narrow path on his own, sooner or later.

 

[jim appleyard]

OK, I can agree with that, just curious of your reason.

 

[Roger Hicks]

Dear Arkady,

At least two people have recommended choosing one film. Here's a counter-argument.

While I'd be surprised if you couldn't get on with one of the films you akready have, it is possible -- and you'll almost certainly get on better with one than the other. For example, I prefer Ilford HP5 Plus, while my wife prefers Kodak Tri-X.

Now, if you prefer one film, it argues that if you'd chosen the other, you'd be less happy and wouldn't get such good pictures.

For the first few rolls, I'd therefore suggest total film promiscuity. Try whatever you can get your hands on. Some will be 'blah' but sooner or later you'll see a hint of 'magic' -- something you really like.

That is the time to settle on one film. To continue faffing around in a search for something else would be foolish. But so would choosing one film, whether at random or on someone else's recommendation, before you've tried a few.

You might also care to have a look at some of the free modules in the Photo School at www.rogerandfrances.com, including 'Welcome to Film' and 'Black and White'.

Cheers,

Roger

 

[John Kasaian]

You've had lots of good advice.

I suggest getting a film retriever---a little metal thingy that slips into the lips of a 35mm cartridge and will pull the little leader of film out so you can insert it into the patterson reel and start racheting it onto the spool. Much neater IMHO than popping off the end of the can---its worth the couple of bucks extra.

Stick with one film and learn what it will do first so you'll have as few variables to deal with as possible. Tri-X and D-76 is my favorite, but HP-5+ is also excellent.

Besides the film retrieval tool, you'll also need a graduate for mixing chemicals and bottles for storage. I also find that a few dedicated plastic measuring cups---the one cup size---are handy for premeasuring your developer, stop and fixer.

Good luck!

 

[jovo]

Well, one more pair of pennies in the SS vs plastic quandary. SS uses a good deal less chemical than the Paterson, and a lot less when you use a multi-reel tank with all reels in use. BOTH!, not just SS allow 'three dimensional' agitation...the Patterson has a lid like the SS tanks have. Once you get the hang of the SS reels, you can easily load any film, whereas thinner film, like Tri-X is more difficult with the plastic reels. You can load plastic reels after drinking a double shot of good Scotch without the fumbling you'll encounter then with SS.

SO..........start with large format film and bypass the whole issue. Develop in trays.

 

[John Kasaian]

Why one film? Because as with most new endeavors, success early on is good for morale. Sticking with a combination that has a track record in both college and high school darkrooms is certainly one way of accomplishing that end. Once you get an understanding of how one particular film behaves you have a better perspective for evaluating the results. For example, are you looking for more grain? Less grain? Would a different dilution help? Or a different developer (or combination of film and developer?) Methodically changing one thing at a time until you get the desired result is often a more effective route----my 2-cents. OTOH experimenting with whatever strikes your fancy is great fun after you've become confident with the basic proceedures involved in developing B&W.