Starting exposure / time for rollo pyro / hp5

[bmac]

I'm about to start my development / exposure tests for hp5 in rollo pyro in my unicolor rig. Can anyone suggest a starting development time?

As far as exposure, I typically spot meter the darkest area of the scene that I want detail with my meter set to 1/2 the manufacturers film speed. This is for development in traditional soup (d76, hc110, rodinal, etc) should I do the same with the rollo?

 

[Keith]

Develop times for all films in CM Pyro is 7mins, in Fimplus PMK Pyro 13mins for HP5+ RATED AT 320 ISO

 

[Tom Duffy]

Brian,
Did you buy your Rollo Pyro from Bostick and Sullivan? When I got mine about 2years ago now, they included a green sheet of instructions. I recall they recommended 8min at 68F in a Jobo. This time seemed about right. the negs were a bit flat but that's always been my impression of HP5...

In terms of metering, I do the same - 1/2 the ISO for my EI and place important shadow on zone IV...

Take care,
Tom

 

[bmac]

I did get it from bostic and sullivan, it includes mixing instructions, but not dev times...

It's interesting to see that we share the same opinion of HP5. I was hoping that this new soup would give it some more punch.

 

[Tom Duffy]

I hate HP5. Try Tri-x in Rollo pyro 6min at 70F for old tri-x; 7 min at 70F in new tri-x.

Or, consider Pyrocat HD; the best pyro developer I ever used in my Jobo about the same development times for me at 2:2:100. No streaking, which I've gotten with Rollo Pyro.

 

[bmac]

Thanks for the info Tom, I actually have a box of 25 "new" 320txp tri-x on my shelf, so will test that with your times as well. I plan on trying out pyrocat as soon as I find a kit in liquid form.

Brian

 

[Donald Miller]

Contrary to the experiences of others, I get PLENTY of contrast with HP5+ and ABC pyro, and I shoot mostly in very flat light. The print I included in the first round of the travelling portfolio was shot on HP5+ and developed in ABC pyro. Did you see it? If so, did it look flat to you? It was too contrasty for the Fomatone even at grade 00. Also, according to Sandy King, if your not getting enough contrast with ABC Pyro, Pyrocat is not the way you want to go, but just the opposite. He recommends ABC for getting more contrast than you can get with Pyrocat. Of course that's a simplification, but the basis is accurate. In my reading of the two metering techniques above, it seems to me that Brian is giving his film one stop more exposure than Tom. If Brian rates his film at 1/2 box speed, meters the darkest part with detail, and uses that as his exposure value, he's placing his shadows on zone V, right? Tom places his metered value one stop lower at zone IV, giving him one stop less exposure, right? Tom, if your negs seemed a bit flat, why would you think that your development time was right? I don't mean to be contentious, I'm just curious why my results with HP5+ and ABC pyro seem to be so different from others.

Jeff,

I guess that you are one of the very few that I have encountered that relate that HP5 is a film that is capable of high DRs sufficient for expansion with Azo, Pt-pd and other alternative processes. I don't know what experience you have had with negatives that you have exposed, developed and printed to a high DR. I am talking of density ranges above 1.50 (High density minus low density...not minus film base plus fog).

Having had a fair amount of experience with ABC, I would not recommend it to anyone as a developer of choice when one is developing negatives for enlarging. That is unless you want tons of humungous clumps of grain. The grain that I mention is apparent when one enlarges 200 asa 4X5 negs to anything larger then 8X10 prints on a condensor enlarger. Perhaps a diffusion light source would allow a slight amount of enlargement increase over condensor.

HP5 is typically known among photographers requiring high DR negs as a film best suited for contraction of high contrast scenes...not expansion of low contrast scenes. That is just the nature of this material.

For those wanting increased contrast there are far better choices then HP5. Tmax 400, Efke PL 100, and FP4 are all better choices.

As a side note, over exposing film is not the answer to gaining increased contrast in fact if one is placing low values at Zone IV and V then the density range available on a given film is compromised to a very real extent. Over exposing film directly leads to reduced density range (contrast).

Having said that I will say that ABC will show a decrease in effective film speed...even when developing to high density ranges. Other staining developers do not show that same tendency.

 

[bmac]

This is the second thread I have started about ROLLO PYRO that has turned into a discussion on A
BC PYRO. My understanding is that they are very different formulas and not to be confused with each other.

 

[Donald Miller]

This is the second thread I have started about ROLLO PYRO that has turned into a discussion on A
BC PYRO. My understanding is that they are very different formulas and not to be confused with each other.

Brian,

You are correct...I was responding to Jeffs assertion of the nature or HP5 film and his developer recommendations. I have no experience with ROLLO PYRO and will therefore tender my apology.

 

[sanking]

I In looking at the formulae for ABC Pyro and ABC Pyro+, it would seem that the +version is even more energetic than the standard version, so I stand by my comments.

I missed the previous reference to ABC Pyro+ in this thread. What is it? Where can I see the formula. I did a google search and could not find ABC Pyro+. Is there really such a thing? I found PMK+, and ABC+, and Pyro+, but not ABC Pyro+.

Of course, Rollo Pyro was originally called ABC+, as some might remember, but never ABC Pyro+.

Sandy King

 

[Tom Duffy]

jdef,
let me clarify. I was recommending Brian try Pyrocat HD not to boost contrast but as better suited to rotary development. Rollo Pyro, despite it's name, often gave me streaks in my negs in a Jobo, pyrocat never has.

I think my exposure technique, i.e., expose at 1/2 manufacturer's ISO and place shadows on Zone IV, is more than generous. I believe you can always "throw away" shadow detail when you print but you can never get it back if you under expose.

Take care,
Tom

 

[sanking]

http://www.photoformulary.com/DesktopModules/StoreProductDetails.aspx?productID=92&tabid=9&tabindex=2&categoryid=31&selection=0&langId=0

ABC Pyro Plus appears to be the formula developed by Harald Leban and first introduced by him as ABC+, without Pyro in the term. It was later made available in kit form by Bostick and Sullivan as Rollo Pyro, after considerable testing by Carl Weese, which he describes in the book The New Platinum Print which he wrote with Richard Sullivan of Bostick and Sullivan. My personal opinion is that the name given the formula by Formulary is confusing because in fact what they sell as ABC Pyro Plus is the same as Rollo Pyro, and these are very different formulas from what most of us know as ABC Pyro (really the old Kodak D-1 formula).

In any event Leban himself posted the formula on the web some years ago, and I have posted it a time or two myself. In the hope of clearing up some of the confusion that exists about these formulas I am going to post it here again, together with some notes taken from a manuscript on which I am currently working.


ABC+

Stock Solution A
Distilled water . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 800 ml
Metol . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 20 g
Sodium Bisulfite*. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 20 g
Pyrogallol . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 150 g
Ascorbic acid (Vitamin C) . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 g
EDTA - Na4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2.5 g
Potassium Bromide ………………………1.5 g
Distilled Water to. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1000 ml

Stock Solution B
Distilled water . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 800 ml
Sodium Metaborate . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . ...300 g
Distilled Water to …………………… 1000 ml


For use: The standard dilution is 2:4:100. ABC+ was designed as a substitute for PMK with rotary processing and is said to provide even development with tube processors running at 25 rpm.

Characteristics: With a working solution that consists of a whopping 7.5 g of reducer per liter of working solution Rollo Pyro falls well outside of the range generally associated with high definition developers. Rolo Pyro is a very high energy developer that provides virtually no compensation, and very little if any enhanced sharpness through the development of adjacency effects. However, most films developed in Rollo Pyro develop a high level of image stain which serves to minimize graininess.

Compare the formula of this developer, what you may call it, and you will see that it is much different from the original ABC Pyro and will not give the same results.


Sandy King

 

[sanking]

My point regarding switching to Pyrocat, for whatever reason, was that it might further reduce negative contrast from what you've been getting with Rollo Pyro, or ABC Pyro+, or whatever it might be called. All of my comments were meant to be helpful, not critical or contentious. I'm sorry if it appeared otherwise.

Just for further clarification, ABC Pyro at the 1:1:1:7 dilution gives more contrast for a given time of development than eiher Rollo Pyro or Pyrocat-HD at the recommended dilutions.

Rollo Pyro at 2:4:100 and Pyrocat-HD at 2:2:100 give virtually idential contrast for the same time of development with all of the films I have tested.

Sandy King

 

[bmac]

I did my first rollo pyro test last night. I had shot a 24 exposure roll of Tri-x rated at 200. As an aside, it was fun to go out and shoot 35mm again after playing with 8x10 & 4x5 for the past 8-10 months!

I processed the film in a unicolor film drum with an extra empty reel. 500ml of solution. 7 mins at 72 degrees.

The negs look like nothing I have ever seen. They look like they will easily print at gr 2-3. I plan on making some test prints soon. I am also having a couple of the negs scanned and will post the results as well.

I chose to error on the side of caution (probably a bit overkill since I was using a liquid kit) and wore goggles, a mask, and latex gloves while processing. And washed the entire darkroom down afterwards.

I’ll post in this thread when I upload the scans.

 

[bmac]

I have just posted a couple of negative scans from the TX400 / rollo pyro test I did the other night. one in the technical gallery, the other in the standard gallery.