What is an acceptable accuracy for shutter speeds on 50-70 year old cameras? Is 10-15% reasonable? Is it different for slow speeds vs high speeds?
Shutter accuracy?
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It’s more like 1/3 stop. But depends... what kind of shutter?
EDIT; when properly serviced.
EDIT; when properly serviced.
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It's very common to see leaf shutters that run a full stop slow over their entire range, and even more so for shutters due for service to be much slower than that (or not close properly at all) on the pallet speeds (typically slower than 1/30 or 1/25).
As long as the shutter is reliable and consistent, it's generally better to record the actual speeds for each setting and use it that way than to spend lots of time and effort, or money, trying to get a 60 to 100 year old mechanism to work in a way it likely didn't even when new.
As long as the shutter is reliable and consistent, it's generally better to record the actual speeds for each setting and use it that way than to spend lots of time and effort, or money, trying to get a 60 to 100 year old mechanism to work in a way it likely didn't even when new.
I bought an inexpensive shutter tester, great tool to have. Most of my shutters, focal plane and leaf, are off fairly significantly especially at the higher speeds. If they are consistent and repeatable I make up a little chart with actual speeds that I keep with the camera. If they are way off (more than a stop) or inconsistent it’s time to get it serviced. Works for me, YMMV.
Usually they'll be a full stop slow on the highest speed, the middle range will be pretty close, and you're going to start getting longer than normal in the slowest speeds. But this is just a generalization, everybody's will be different. You can buy an accurate speed tester for probably $20 on eBait. I've used them for many years on older cameras.
I built a shutter tester using open audio software (you can find instructions on the Net), and found that my Zeiss folders' Compur Rapid and Synchro Compur shutters are very consistent but 1/2 to 1 stop slow. The exceptions are on cameras that came from Certo6; they are spot on from 1/10 to 1/250. My wife's Leica, which has never been serviced, is perfect. I also have a folder that was serviced in 1976, with its main spring replaced, and it is perfectly consistent and perfectly 1 stop slow.
What matters to me is if the camera and the meter are acceptably close in result, indicated vs. actual exposure...I care not to know it's actual speed is +0.5EV slow or that it is 1/375 rather than 1/500...
That knowledge would make me unnecessarily crazy...it is the results being consitent between meter and shutter...if meter is off, and so is shutter, that they are both off in the same direction, the consistency of error neutralizes the impact of error!
That knowledge would make me unnecessarily crazy...it is the results being consitent between meter and shutter...if meter is off, and so is shutter, that they are both off in the same direction, the consistency of error neutralizes the impact of error!
This is very sage wisdom. If the negative is acceptable and repeatable, that is the bottom line.
The reason I ask is I sold a camera elsewhere and they are telling me that 1/500th is too fast. They also claim at wide open the aperture blades are not fully open which between the two it's a stop off. He is sending me a picture of the blades.
http://www.flutotscamerarepair.com/Shutterspeed.htm
1 second to 1/120 20%; 1/125 and above 30% or 1/3 stop for all speeds.
Its your gear, destroy it if you wish, service it if you want to keep it going.
1 second to 1/120 20%; 1/125 and above 30% or 1/3 stop for all speeds.
This will kill a shutter. CLA it between 1/2 to 1 stop slow even if it does not come back to in specs. Slow shutters are usually dirty with dried lubrication which weakens springs and perpetuates wear on moving parts.
Its your gear, destroy it if you wish, service it if you want to keep it going.
I get conflicted by advice like this.
I'm very much in favor of wanting to keep these old mechanical marvels working correctly for another century, if possible, but I'm not sure I believe it's that bad to let them run slow, and I hear a hint of "if you can't afford to spend $150+ to service the camera that cost you $25, you shouldn't try to use film."
The key is "reliable and consistent." If the shutter's destroying itself with each firing, I wouldn't expect the speeds to be consistent or, for instance, the slow pallet speeds to even be reliable (as in, reliably close in even a full stop off).
Not to mention, I don't think I typed anything that could be interpreted to mean "your 1/100 is actually 1/10, but if it's always 1/10, it's okay." I was more thinking 1/100 running actual 1/50, and always between, say, 15 and 30 milliseconds -- which is right on your limit. More so, it's a difference most will never notice, because it requires instruments to tell the difference.
I have 5 dead shutters due to not being serviced. I paid little for them. I have 2 others that are worn out from heavy use. If you do not know when the shutter was serviced last service it. If 1 second and 1/2 second are in tolerance then speeds up to 1/60 will be also, 1/100 and faster may be off 1/2 stop to 2 stops at 1/500.
And there it is again.
This makes more sense now, with film consumption and camera prices on the rise, than it did when quality folders were routinely available for $10 to $25, but it's still like telling someone that if they can't afford to spend a thousand dollars at the drop of a hat on veterinary care, they shouldn't have a dog or cat.
If I really believed this, I would only own one or two cameras -- and probably none, because I wouldn't commit myself to the ongoing expense. And all the cameras I do own would have gone to landfills, because no one was willing or able to have them serviced.
I only have, at most, half a dozen leaf shutters that are significantly slow, and I don't use them because I have others that work correctly (as far as I can tell) -- but I don't think I have a single one that I could tell you even a year of last service (except for the couple I serviced myself, and you'd consider those more at risk than the ones I haven't touched, because I'm not a professional).
I try to base my exposure on the shutters measured speed. A lot of times those numbers they engrave on there are not correct.
Whatever my camera repair man can deliver. I pay someone so that I do not have to become a repair technician and I can concentrate on my photographs.
Most “modern” mechanical shutters (thirties and up) where designed to run dry.
What is slowing them down is accumulated crud. If it’s not sand or concrete dust, it will not harm the shutter to work with a little dust, migrated skinfat (common house dust contains a lot of dead skin cells) and oxidation, even if it slows it down.
Over time the mechanism will find an equilibrium.
Most pros will not ever go through the exceptional bother of taking the shutter apart. They will isolate the mechanism, bare it as much as possible, and flush it and blow it clean until it works.
What is slowing them down is accumulated crud. If it’s not sand or concrete dust, it will not harm the shutter to work with a little dust, migrated skinfat (common house dust contains a lot of dead skin cells) and oxidation, even if it slows it down.
Over time the mechanism will find an equilibrium.
Most pros will not ever go through the exceptional bother of taking the shutter apart. They will isolate the mechanism, bare it as much as possible, and flush it and blow it clean until it works.
What camera and what shutter?
The manual put out by the Compur people for servicing their Synchro compur shutters shows pages and pages of lubricatrion points.
Overlubing is a real problem, but no, Synchro Compur shutters, all made from the 1940-50s forward, were not designed to run dry.
https://www.scribd.com/doc/44503560/Compur-Shutter-Repair-Manual
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My response is that no one sells a camera with the guarantee the shutter speeds are within a certain percentage of markings, especially when the camera is 50-70yo... the seller merely has verified that the shutter opens and closes, with nominal changes in audible shutter speed / or eye inspection of changes, as expected by the indicated number.
Lens apertures...fair disclosure would indicate sticky blades. But it seems odd the aperture would 'close down' even a bit, if the setting is wide open.
If the lens and camera were both advertised as 'recenly CLA'd' the expectation of proper performance might be more realistic, but given the failure of most shutters to attain the top speed -- even with a new camera -- makes the 'off speed' claim a bit too high expectation for buyer to have!
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Many times the maximum aperture opening based on the specific lens in use will lead to the aperture blades not being 'fully open' to the same opening as the shutter is capable.... if that makes sense. So you might see aperture blades projecting into the maximum shutter block opening when the aperture IS in the correct maximum opening position.
Knowing the specific shutter and lens is needed.
Mechanical timed shutters were spec'ed 1/2 stop at the fast speeds, 1/3 stop at the slower speed as being in tolerance from the factory. This was carried on into electronically times shutters in the film days.
Professional Chrome shooter would record the actual speed on a card, as a 1/2 stop can degrade a chrome significantly under many situations.
Professional Chrome shooter would record the actual speed on a card, as a 1/2 stop can degrade a chrome significantly under many situations.
I don’t think it really matters. The seller is not happy and, for whatever reason, probably really wants to return it rather than haggle over shutter specs, etc.
Fascinating manual! Thanks for that.
Ok so not completely dry. The very fact that you can get oil on the blades should be enough to reveal as much. But any kind of "home lubrication" is out the question. Balistol is a no go in any quantity.
At best fumes or the tiniest amount of naphtha wicked from a cotton swap should be able to dilute the thin oil coat back to good enough viscosity and losen any dust stuck in the oil.
This will not harm the shutter. Any kind if "pouring" though, of even a drop of naphtha could potentially make it neigh on unserviceable.
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The camera is a Rolleiflex 3.5F. He sent me a picture of the aperture and at 3.5 it's not fully open although I don't think it would affect anything. I never noticed a problem with it but then again I don't shoot wide open that often. I told him I would take it back because of the blades but the shutter was not a legitimate reason.
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