Should I retry LF?

mrtoml · Oct 29, 2008

I have a nice large format kit (Shen Hao 4x5, lots of holders, a nice Rodenstock lens etc.), but I have not used it for a long time. The reason being that I used to scan my negatives and print digitally. I have since completely given up digital and now use mostly medium format (a Mamiya 7, Fuji 645 and some 35mm). I enlarge up to 12x16 and don't envisage ever going much bigger (maybe the odd 16x20). However, I appreciate the value of having camera movements. I also have a lot of 4x5 negatives from my days in Connemara which I cannot currently print - which is a shame.

My question then is twofold:

1. At 12x16 would I notice a big improvement over the Mamiya 7 with its legendary lenses if I went up to 4x5? I have never printed a 4x5 negative conventionally and I don't think the digital versions are a proper comparison.

2. I am worried about the enlarger. I have a 6x7 version (LPL7700) and my darkroom has a low ceiling (about 6 1/2 feet). The LPL almost touches the ceiling (it's on a bench). Is there a 4x5 enlarger that would comfortably fit into this space that would do 12x16?

If the answer is no to both these questions then it may be worth passing the kit on to someone who can make better use of it.

Cheers.

Ole · Oct 29, 2008

The difference is not so much in sharpness as in tonality. Prints from LF negs have a very different smoother tonality, even if they might even be less sharp than prints the same size from a 6x7 negative.

I don't know about your question #2 - I had a Rajah 4x5" enlarger which was smaller than many MF enlargers, but currently use a big floor-standing ceiling-scraping Durst L138S.

Stan160 · Oct 29, 2008

Try an older enlarger. I have a (I think) 1940s Wasp 5"x4" enlarger. Very basic, not even a filter drawer, but very compact. I've not yet printed from 5"x4" on it, only 6x9cm, but I don't think there would be a problem in the sort of space you have - my darkroom is in a loft extension and has even less head room than yours, although my enlargers are on a low cupboard.

Ian

Jarvman · Oct 29, 2008

Mark, I think the enlarger is the biggest problem really. I had to have my darkroom remodelled to fit one, you can see it over at the darkroom thread. The enlarger head doesn't need much elevation above the paper to do a 12x16 but the column that raises the head all the way up won't fit in the space your 6x7 enlarger sts in. As for the quality of the enlargements over 6x7, I can notice a difference between my 6x6 prints and one made from a 4x5 negative, the first ever one I printed the other day. At that size I don't think it's phenomenally different to go through the effort of putting in a new enlarger and rejigging your darkroom though. I had a yearning for huge prints before and thought I'd be doing them regularly but I haven't printed anything above 12x16 yet. I couldn't see myself using a 4x5 much in the past but I really enjoy using the Chamonix now, especially the attention it gets me. It's made me less conciouss about photographing in public strangely! Like you said, the biggest benefits are having something with movements and being able to individually process your negs, something im just beginning to touch on now.

mrtoml · Oct 29, 2008

Thanks for all your replies. Maybe I will keep my eyes peeled for a used 4x5 enlarger that will fit. I didn't know that such beasts existed.

Jarvman, that darkroom you've set up looks great. I take your point about getting noticed. When I was doing landscape photography with the Shen-Hao in Ireland, people (usually tourists) would stop by the side of the road in the middle of nowhere and take pictures of me under the dark cloth with their digital cameras - probably thinking 'what's this madman doing, can't he afford a proper camera'.

TheFlyingCamera · Oct 29, 2008

I have a beseler 45MCxx (I forget exactly which model), but it fits just fine on a mid-thigh level table (some IKEA IVAR shelves) with room to take the head all the way to the top, and my ceiling in my basement darkroom is a bit over 6 feet- 6'3" at the most. The downside of course is that I stoop more than I'd like to focus, but it works. I do have the color dichroic head on the enlarger, which takes a good six to eight inches off the top of the enlarger, so I can get the head higher. That said, I can make 16x20 prints with 4x5 negs using this configuration. I don't know how common Beseler enlargers are in the UK, but they're practically giving used ones away here they're so plentiful.

jovo · Oct 29, 2008

You don't have to stand to use your enlarger. Try putting it on a stand low enough that you can comfortably sit down to operate it. That may aid whatever you end up with in being usable. Also, avoid XL girders....they are the extra long parts that make certain enlargers too tall to use.

John Kasaian · Oct 29, 2008

Well...you could always move to 8x10 and make contact prints

bill spears · Oct 29, 2008

Having worked in medium format for around 15 yrs I'd always yearned to move into large format. About a year ago my wish came true when I got myself a Sinar 5x4. I was really excited at the thought of discovering everything I'd read about the leap in image quality etc. Now, many hundreds of sheets of film later I'm still undecided about the improvements in sharpness AND tone etc (up to an image size of about 16x20 that is)
Comparing my best prints from a 6x7 neg against my best ones from 5x4, I'm struggling to see any difference. The biggest handicap with large format that I encounter is not being able to react quick enough in situations of rapidly changing light, and I mean light thats literally changing by the second ! I know for sure that I've missed some really great images which wouldn't have happened had I being using rollfilm. Then there's the issues with portability, cost of film, and, something I'm really struggling with lately - even development. I do appreciate the advantages of being able to process normal, plus and minus development times separately though. As for camera movements, I must admit to not being very competent in this area and find that I can often get by without. (the 65mm lens I use doesn't really allow this anyway)
All this reminds me of the saying - 'be careful what you wish for' and I've often thought about selling to invest more in my med format (RB67) system.
However, theres something about the medatitive approach to using this camera that keeps me fascinated with it, and, I guess I'm still learning ! All the stress that this format gives me just makes me even more determined to master it !! Another thing which I'm really impressed with is the look of a contact print and I think if I ever did sell, it would be to move up to a 12 x10 or something and do away with projection alltogether.

Regarding enlargers you might want to look into those that have a drop down base board in order to get bigger prints. Expensive though, I guess.
You could also consider wall mounting the enlarger and constructing a table with drop down shelves or something.

Dont know if this answers any of your questions but just thought sharing some of my own adventures might help.
Bill

Trevor Crone · Oct 29, 2008

Mark, with careful and thoughtful processing (of film and printing) you can certainly achieve the quality from medium format as you can from 4x5. However the ability to have control over image management at the taking stage is a big plus IMO. Certainly one of the reasons why I sold my Pentax 6x7 for a view camera. I found fixed lens systems very frustrating for what I wanted to photograph, but that of course is a personal thing. The ability to process individual sheets of film to suit ones taste/need is another big plus.

The fact that you can produce contact prints, which I feel have a beauty all of their own is another reason why I chose 4x5 and more recently 8x10. But this like so many choices in life is again a very personal thing.

Whatever decision you finally make may it suit your vision.

Trevor.

Nicholas Lindan · Oct 29, 2008

mrtoml said:
am worried about the enlarger ... my darkroom has a low ceiling (about 6 1/2 feet)

My darkroom is under the eaves, the enlarger is a Beseler 45 and the height above the enlarger is 6' or so. It all fits - the enlarger is on a lowered bench and I work from an office swivel chair.

You don't need a small enlarger, a regular sized 4x5 enlarger will fit.

Thingy · Oct 29, 2008

I've experimented with various formats and cameras over the years and have found different cameras etc suitable for different subjects. I use my Contax G2 for monochrome documentary work (I used to use an MPP Microcord) and do most macro and landscape work with my new Olympus E-3 DSLR. However despite using Olympus's excellent super 7-14mm/f4 wide-angle zoom, with less distortion than usual, I finally realised tha limits of cameras without movements when in Bergen last Summer. I encountered a really interesting building, or to be more precise, doorway in part of the city's Art Museum, the Rasmus Meyer building. My various attempt at producing a satisfactory image were confounded. I realised that I needed camera movements to control perspective. The question you need to ask yourself is to what purpose you wish to use the camera and do the benefits of camera movements outweigh the limitations in terms of the time taken to select a scene and record that image.

Incidentally I now digitalise all my film for printing.

Nick Zentena · Oct 29, 2008

My Beseler is huge even with the lower colour head it's tall. I just made a short table for it. Meant sitting to use it but it fits.

My Durst is much smaller and stood on a much higher bench.

mrtoml · Oct 29, 2008

It's not easy is it

I think I will keep my LF gear for the time being and see whether a cheap LF enlarger turns up close enough to home that I can have a look at it before I buy it. If it looks like it will be usable in my workspace then I will give it a go. I haven't been looking for one so I don't know how plentiful they are. Secondhanddarkroom have several used ones, but the cheapest is about £500 which seems a lot these days.

bill spears · Oct 29, 2008

mrtoml said:
It's not easy is it

I think I will keep my LF gear for the time being and see whether a cheap LF enlarger turns up close enough to home that I can have a look at it before I buy it. If it looks like it will be usable in my workspace then I will give it a go. I haven't been looking for one so I don't know how plentiful they are. Secondhanddarkroom have several used ones, but the cheapest is about £500 which seems a lot these days.

I put a wanted advert in my local paper for a 5 4 enlarger and came up with a Devere 504, 3 lenses and a Beard easel for £150 !! This was an amazing find considering there really isn't much of this kind of stuff down here in Cornwall. Just proves you never know what some people have stuffed in their attics and garages !

As for SDS - Waaay to expensive

bdial · Oct 29, 2008

There was some discussion in here quite a while ago about someone modding a Beseler 23C to take 4x5. They are a good bit shorter than typical 4x5 enlargers, you wouldn't be able to make big prints, but 8x10s and maybe 11x14's shouldn't be a problem.

mrtoml · Nov 4, 2008

There is an Omega Super Chromega DII 5X4 Enlarger going near where I live. Anyone know anything about this model?

bill spears · Nov 4, 2008

I have no experience with Omega enlargers but believe they are top quality. The only resvervation I would have is the availability of parts. I think they're an American make ? and I think Morco in the UK supplY them so it may be worth contacting them

2F/2F · Nov 4, 2008

If you need the money, sell it. Otherwise, why not just wait and see what happens? It is not going to get any worse by sitting there a little longer. A 4x5 enlarger may fall your way for almost nothing some day. Since you use movements, perhaps a good option would be to rig up a 6x7 roll film holder to your 4x5. The problem is, simply, that this is just more crap to buy...

ic-racer · Nov 4, 2008

mrtoml said:
There is an Omega Super Chromega DII 5X4 Enlarger going near where I live. Anyone know anything about this model?

Omegas are quite popular in the states. That would be an excellent enlarger.

http://www.khbphotografix.com/omega/index.html

John Kasaian · Nov 4, 2008

Omegas are still well supported by the current distributor and used parts are common. I've got a D-2 and it's a sweet machine. The chomega head is the "color" head.

mrtoml · Nov 5, 2008

Thanks, All.

I will think about the Omega if the price stays low (currently £50 on ebay). I am also thinking about just getting a rollfilm back so I will have movements and still use my 6x7 enlarger.

Should I retry LF?

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