Sharp-unsharp on GG with plenty of movements - how to deal with it?

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eumenius

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Hello friends,

though my view camera is still not fully operable, I began to explore it. Well, my first natural movement was to try some extreme movements with a close-up of dried cactus' top. Scale more than 1:1, quite close with Fujinon 150/6.3. Well, I've noticed a simple thing - if the ground glass is parallel to the lens, or is nearly so, I can see a real sharpness with my loupe. But when I apply lots of tilt, swing, shift etc. the picture changes - the loupe stops to be helpful, I see with eyes just some "sharpness" when I focus, and adjust for it. When looked upon with a loupe, it doesn't make "sharp" impression, and I can't get a true sharp focus anywhere. But on a film everything becomes okay :smile: What's the optical principle of those things I observe? Is it just the angle of ground glass, so it loses right "teeth" in its surface to catch light? How does one properly focus a view camera with plenty of movements applied?

Cheers, and best wishes from Moscow - Zhenya
 

Foto Ludens

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Zhenya,

I have noticed a similar phenomenon when tilting/swinging the lens: the GG gets darker, and contrast is lost. I don't use a loupe for focusing, so I'm not sure if the unsharp thing happens as well.

Anyway, I attributed this to the fact that by tilting the lens the aperture "looks" progressively more oval and smaller to the film plane. This would account for the darkening of the gg, and perhaps to the loss of contrast and sharpness.

Could this be it?

André
 

Troy Ammons

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Looooong as usual.........


You should probably read through a book on focusing a view camera, and understand what happens to the plane of focus when you tilt. You could also go here.

http://www.trenholm.org/hmmerk/

What you are trying to do is very difficult. Probably best to start out with something simple, like a flat landscape with nothing in the foreground. I dont know how far your subject is away from the lens but it sounds very close. About 2 years ago I was trying to do a semi macro (way less than 1:1) of items on a flat table. If you can imagine about 2-3 feet wide from side to side on the width of a 4x5 frame.

I wanted a 12" dof, angled slightly above the top almost like photographing a macro landscape. I finally got it but I could not do it with a 150. I ended up with a WA 90, used front and back tilt, and stopped down. It was right at the edge of what was doable. I was also limited by the image circle.

Next I will say that LF tilt is blown way out of proportion IMO. Using tilt, any objects close the camera that frame the shot high, like trees, will be OOF. I had a problem with that here not too long ago, and I got one very good explanation about what happens to dof when tilting.

That tiny bit of understanding comes from what happens to the dof range and plane of focus when you tilt and once you understand it, you will know the limitations of using tilt better. When to use it. When not to use it and what happens when you under tilt or over tilt. If you really dissect it, it can get complicated.

Also contrary to what a lot of people think, including me 2 years ago, using tilt does not guarantee and infinite focus everywhere. It obeys the rules on the above site. Look at the movies on that site.

A landscape example.......

In very very general terms, just talking about tilt. When the standards are parallel, just like when you shoot a 35mm camera, the DOF is parallel to the film plane at some distance out. Lets just say you are stopped down and you have a total of 30' of DOF. 15' in front and 15' in back of the subject. I am sure you have stopped down a 35mm camera to get some dof, or shot WO for less dof.

As you tilt the lens down on a view camera, the plane of focus starts to tilt also. It moves along a hinge line and might end up at an angle from your feet going through some point at or above the ground far off. That is the tilted plane of focus and everything along that plane will be in focus.

Now what threw me and the reason it can get so difficult to use the Scheimpflug effect is that that 30' total of dof is not parallel anymore. It would be nice if it was but it is not. What happens is at your feet, it might be only a few inches deep, perpendicular to the plane of focus. As you go out at some point you would hit your 30' and beyond that it might be infinite, but still depth wise perpendicular to the plane of focus.

Generally what you end up with is a wedge going from your feet to the horizon with the small end at your feet.

I am sure your are getting my drift on your cactus shot and I think in your case possibly when tilting you are throwing the sharp plane of focus under or over the cactus. Using tilt takes a lot of getting used to and its easy to over tilt at first. ref below. Also when you are that close the dof is only inches if not fractions deep.

If you are stopped down more the dof wedge along the plane of focus should be wider. WO and it should be narrow.

So to wrap up this long winded explanation (sorry), just talking in generalities, the plane of focus should align with the plane you want in focus. for a simple landscape with tall trees 100 yds off, you would want the plane of focus to go from your feet to the middle of the trees and hopefully have enough dof at the trees to cover it. If not stop down more, but tilting more wont necessarily help.

Same if you had the trees as above, but also a 3' fence about 20 feet away. The plane of focus would need to go from your feet, through the fence and through the trees, with enough dof at each intersection that the tall elements were in focus.

Ie if the dof was shallow at the fence and you had the plane of focus parallel with the ground (too much tilt, a case of overtilting for that situation) the top of fence would be OOF but the bottom would be in focus. If you did not use enough tilt, like the plane of focus went from your feet to the top of the trees, the bottom of the fence could be OOF. In both situations if there was enough dof at the trees due to the wedge shaped dof they could actually be in focus in both examples, but different parts of the fence could be OOF.

If the fence was 8 feet tall, It might not work at all.

Thats why I mentioned above that tilt is over rated. There are just a lot of situations were it does not work, and if you do not understand how it works you can blow a lot of shots. Dont get me wrong, as I think it is a good tool, but you can really screw up a good shot sometimes when you would have been better off just stopping down. That usually happens to me when I am not paying attention and not checking the corners.

The sinar is probably the easiest to setup tilt on. It uses a method of focusing and has a readout dial that tells you the appropriate tilt for a shot. Its really easy. Also 90% of my landscape shots with 4x5 are around 5-8 degrees of tilt.

For your subject really what you need is a WA lens with a huge image circle, that you can stop way down. In my case as I mentioned above my first trial was with 150mm lens and I think at the distance I was at from the subject I had 3" of DOF max stopping down, which meant I had to get the rest with tilt and it just was not doable. I think now I might have a better shot at it, but if I did it again I would use a wider lens and 6x7 MF for more dof.

Also go here for a start. Enter your lens at 1.5' and F64 and see what sort of dof you get. You get about 3"

A 90mm lens at 1.5' and F64 would buy you .95' but you would have to crop. thats what i ended up doing, but I shot at a less F and tilted some to end up with about 14"

http://www.dofmaster.com/dofjs.html

Hope this makes some sense.

If anybody see a mistake in my ramblings please speak up. A LF camera is a steep learning curve.
 

Troy Ammons

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Sorry, I mis-replied above.

Sorry, Sorry

I assumed above that since your image is OOF when tilting your cactus was above or below the plane of focus although I still think that could be part of the fuzzy GG problem.

Just guessing, if you are framing WO, then tilt, the actual plane of focus could actually be above or below the cactus. Framing WO would provide a very shallow dof and the image would look oof in that case because it would not be within the area of sharp focus.

When you stopped down to take the shot the top of the cactus was probably thrown into the area of sharp focus (deeper dof) along the plane of focus, if that makes any sense.

I have noticed some light drop off when using extreme tilt also. Just guessing again I would say its due to the lightrays being less perpendicular to the GG.

A reflex viewer and a fresnel is just the ticket for that.
 

stormbytes

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Hey Zhenya,

If I understood correctly, Troy was referring to the actual 'depth' of the focal plane and not it's actual position (or angle) with respect to the camera, and to it's scheimpflug 'hinge'. I can't really comment on that - only to say that I haven't experienced any 'problems' when applying tilts.

I use the following technique, and in my experiences, it has proven quite effective.

1. Compose your shot (lets say.. several large rocks in the foreground and a farm house in the background-left)

2. Focus on the NEAR OBJECT (in this case, the rocks in the foreground) THEN apply front-tilts until about the middle (vertically) of your far object, or all of it, (the farm house) is in sharp focus.

3. REPEAT steps 1 & 2 until your focus is fine-tuned.

The actual "depth" of your plane of focus will obviously vary with lens aperture. I would suggest making several exposures of the same scene, varying the aperture by 1 stop with each exposure, and see 'learn' the approximate dof required for different 'types' of scenes.

My 2 cents
 

stormbytes

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PS:

I should add that the same technique works for swings, and for combining tilts & swings.
 

Alexz

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BTW, not from personal experience (I'm still quite novice in 4x5 actual shooting, mostly learning the theory yet), but theoretically I thought about the following procedure given shooting with field camera featured by base tilts (rather then axial):
Shooting landscape or similar with deep DOF desired (foreground and background subjects to be in focus) and tilting back:
1. Focus on far background subject that is desired to be in focus. Since the GG image is upside down, we have it near the GG bottom.
2. Tilt the back backward (base tilt) until the foreground comes into focus.
3. Refine the focusing.

The procedure is based on the fact that the GG bottom part is located near back tilt axis (given base tilts available on most field cameras) and usually the far background subjects are projected onto this part of GG (upside-down). Which means tilting the back around base axis will displace the bottom GG section very slightly (ideally wouldn't move at all) so this requires just some slight fine tuning of the focus (so that once focused on far background base tilt will affect it only slightly), but tilt backward will bring near objects (foreground) into focus due to being projected onto the upper GG section (which is mostly displaced by tilt).

If it is desired to apply front tilt rather then back - as was mentioned by iserious - focus on near subject (foreground) and then appaly front tilt forward to bring the background into focus. The reason is exactly opposite to back tilting.

This is what I inferred from theory and Sheimflug rule. So far haven't tried this in practice, hopefully will do soon.

Alex
 

noseoil

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Zhenya, forget about those extreme movements you see in camera magazines when selling a camera. A small amount is usually what is needed, not a lot.

Start with the simple stuff. Try doing a shot of a meter stick laid down flat on a table. Start with the camera and lens parallel to each other (always start with everything at the "0" position) and tip the whole camera down until you can see the stick. Next, try a little front tilt (you have been given some very good advice already about how this works) with the lens standard to see what happens. Change focus, re-tilt just a bit and you will have the whole stick in focus with the lens wide open, sooner or later.

Next, with this set all in good focus and with the lens wide open, start adding beer bottles (Vodka bottles ok too) to the image. Near ones might not be in focus, far ones might show more to you. As you stop down, more will be seen. If you play around with these types of scenes, you will begin to see how it all works. Time and patience, my friend. Good luck, tim
 
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