Shadow lines in negative

[John Bartley]

I wonder if some more experienced LF persons here could discuss how one gets "shadow lines" on a negative. I understand light leaks and how pinholes, loose back springs, leaky light traps etc ... can cause bright lines on a print. I also understand flares causing bright "splotches" on a print.

Here's my trouble :

I'm using a 1941 Agfa Ansco 8x10
I have two lenses, an Ilex Paragon 12" in a shutter and Goerz Artar 16-1/2" barrel lens, no shutter. Each lens has its own lensboard

I get a bright line across the negative, causing a corresponding dark line across the print. The line is approx 1/8" wide and is fuzzy (not focussed). It starts about 1" x 1" in from the upper left corner of the print, drops about an inch or so and sweeps across the print to the right, ending about 3" from the right side of the negative. It happens with both lenses and doesn't happen all the time. I will post a scan as soon as these negs are dry.

I realise that I'm not going to get an instant "do this and it will fix it" type of answer. I'm more wondering if anyone else has had shadow lines instead of light leaks.

cheers and thank you

 

[David A. Goldfarb]

Cable release hanging in front of the lens? (Don't ask me how I know that...)

 

[Nick Zentena]

Something is blocking something. But the cable release shouldn't be causing problems with the barrel lens Could the bellows be sagging?

So you're saying the top of the image? In other words the bottom of the negative? Or the top of the negative? Call me upside down at the moment.

 

[John Bartley]

Cable release hanging in front of the lens? (Don't ask me how I know that...)

When the first one happened, I thought of that because the first one IIRC was with the Ilex, but .... nope wasn't that

So you're saying the top of the image? In other words the bottom of the negative? Or the top of the negative? Call me upside down at the moment.

Hey upside down - straighten up and fly right eh?

The shadow appears at the top LH side of the print and goes L to R and sags about an inch in a gentle curve.
The bellows are quite stiff and don't seem to sag at all ..., even so, wouldn't that cause a shadow "block"? instead of just a line?
My sweetheart thinks it's a thread or spider web, but I can't see a blessed thing *&^**&^!!!

cheers

 

[argus]

John,

check the inside of the bellows and investigate if there is a thread from the bellows material hanging in front of the negative.
I had it once.

G

 

[phfitz]

John,

Does the camera back have slots for divider plates and a nicely curved spring?

Just a thought.

 

[John Bartley]

John,

check the inside of the bellows and investigate if there is a thread from the bellows material hanging in front of the negative.
I had it once.

G

Hi G.

That's something that I thought of and so when it happened last fall, I blew the inside of the bellows out with compressed air. There was nothing there. The other thing that's driving me nuts is that any thread would have to be levitating from the the bottom RH side of the bellows The last time I thought I saw something levitating, I'd had too many wobbly-pops

 

[John Bartley]

John,

Does the camera back have slots for divider plates and a nicely curved spring?

Just a thought.

phfitz,

Yes, it does and I was looking at those today and was wondering what they were for .... I assume now that they are for viewing two possible exposures, each half of the 8x10?
Now I'm trying to remember which way I had the frame installed. I'll have a look at the negatives to see.

EDIT ::
- so I had a look at the last two negs and I had the rear frame in both ways. What I've been doing is turning the rear frame so that the opening for the dark slide is facing away from sun whenever possible. I haven't had any dark slide light trap troubles, but I figure it's an easy precaution to take.

cheers

 

[John Bartley]

Here's a neg scan of the negative done with the barrel lens - please excuse my crappy scan.

It's got me puzzled. I had almost this exact same shadow last fall untill I blew out the bellows. It was fine after that and now it's back and I haven't used the camera for about 3-4 months.

 

[David A. Goldfarb]

Interesting. Definitely not a cable release or bellows impingement, and doesn't look like a light leak. If you didn't have exactly the same issue on several sheets of film I would guess it was a processing issue or the film being crimped.

 

[Campbell]

Well we've figured out what it isn't - it isn't a sagging bellows (I've had them, they create a more or less straight shadow across the top of the print), it isn't a light leak, it isn't something hanging "up" inside the bellows, it isn't the cable release (had them too, they didn't look anything like what you've got), it isn't the lens (since it happens with both lenses), and it presumably isn't a processing problem since it's happened so often. That would seem to leave the film holder(s) as a possible culprit. Since it doesn't happen all the time maybe it's happening only with one particular holder? Have you checked it/them, blown it/them out with canned air or brushed with an anti-static brush, checked for a loose thread from the hinge tape, things like that?

 

[John Bartley]

On Sunday past, I took two photos, the first one ( Parliament Hill Library building) is shown in my last post, the second one was at the Rideau Canal locks just east of Parliament Hill. The first photo was with the Goerz barrel lens and the #2 frame of one film holder. The second was with the Ilex lens and the #1 frame of a second film holder. The shadow is there in both but slightly lower in the second photo. Also, in the second picture I made sure I was standing in shade. I've had my camera apart again and can't see anything at all.

Anyway, thank you for all the suggestions, they are greatly appreciated. I guess I'll just have to dig in deeper and look more closely inside the camera.

cheers

 

[noseoil]

John, is this line exactly the same in each shot? In other words, is it happening in the camera in exactly the same spot each time? Is it always in the sky? It is an unusual effect, not one I've managed to do, yet....

Next question is, are you still using the aero roll film as in the past? Is it possible that it is a defect in the film, which is replicated and found due to your slicing of the film in whatever manner you are using? Just a thought. Please let us know when you get it sorted out. One for the weird file. tim

 

[John Bartley]

John, is this line exactly the same in each shot? In other words, is it happening in the camera in exactly the same spot each time? Is it always in the sky? It is an unusual effect, not one I've managed to do, yet....

Next question is, are you still using the aero roll film as in the past? Is it possible that it is a defect in the film, which is replicated and found due to your slicing of the film in whatever manner you are using? Just a thought. Please let us know when you get it sorted out. One for the weird file. tim

Hi Tim,

Yup, definitely one for the weird file . I've gone back thru' my negs and logs and the one and only constant is the camera body. All the other stuff I have has had a picture with this shadow. That includes two tripods, three film holders, two lenses, the camera back in two orientations etc. The only thing left is an errant thread in the bellows - it has to be !!! After I blew them out last time, the shadow disappeared, so I'm going to do this again and see what I can see. I'm also going to stretch them out and gently run a damp cloth across every single pleat just to make sure. I also checked the only other constant (film and cutter) and I'm going to go out on a limb and say that I don't "see" anything wrong there.
Attached is the second picture taken on Sunday. It was a different lens, a different holder and a different bellows extension. The shadow is in almost the same place.

cheers and yes, I'll post when I've found the little devil that's causing this assault on my sense of humour .

 

[David A. Goldfarb]

I'd look carefully at the film and cutter. If you look toward the right side just below the shadow near the end, there's a half-moon shaped mark that looks very much like a crimp mark. Maybe it's the way you're holding the film down to cut it.

I don't see a thread in the bellows forming that kind of arc in the bottom of the camera. Do you get it at the top of the frame in the vertical orientation or on the side? If it's on the side, then it's not the bellows.

Try some other, precut film.

 

[Charles Webb]

John,
I would bet your problem lies within your film cutting process! The results are not exactly the same, but similar. If it were a thread or something in the bellow it would be near exact everytime and appear on factory cut or your hand cut film. It looks very much like what we used to call an "Oyster Shell" caused by crimping the film in some way. Cross light your negative with the base up, usually you can see a high spot where the line of dinsity is.

Just some thoughts from past experiences.
Charlie...............................

Good luck!

 

[John Bartley]

Update ...

So, before heading out on holidays to Northern Ontario earlier this month, I took my camera apart and not only blew it out with compressed air, but also wiped the inside of the bellows with a damp rag to make sure that some mischievious spider wasn't hiding away in there. Over the holidays I exposed my three filmholders twice each for a total of 12 shots and I didn't get a single imperfection in any negative!

I have to assume that the problem was a spider web as that is the only type of thread that would rise from the bottom of the camera bellows.

Last year, one of the "shadowed" photos was the Temagami train station. I shot it again this year and ... attached is a negative scan of the Temagami train station. This was scanned thru' the mylar protective sleeve complete with dust etc., so it's not a great picture, but I can hardly wait for a printing session as I'd like to frame and hang this one for my Dad who taught school in Temagami in the 1950's.

As an aside, this is PlusXAero (again), but I have the speed now rated down to iso10 and I am developing in D-D23 for 5 minutes in "A" and 4 minutes in a "B" bath of Borax

 

[Kino]

It almost looks like a pressure fogging...

How do you process your film?

 

[John Bartley]

It almost looks like a pressure fogging...

How do you process your film?

I process the negatives in an ABS tube.

The shadow lines were all in the roughly the same place, but not exactly the same place and the techniques I used for cutting the film from the roll, transporting the film and developing it were identical for the 50 negatives before the lines arrived and are the same for the last dozen that are shadowless.

I'm pretty sure it was a spider web.

cheers

 

[Ed Workman]

How do you process the negatives? Could it be "bromide drag"? from trapped development products. I've had it happen when I've tried to develope several exposures of the same print all at once, albeit put into the tray one at a time: A white line appeared in the same place on prints in the center of the pile cuz I didn'e shuffle them, I had just rocked the tray, so that the by-products were not dispersed, and no development happened.

 

[John Bartley]

Hi Ed,

I'm a bit of a sucker for punishment but I only shoot about two negatives per average week, so I develop each one separately in an ABS tube. When David and Charles suggested a film crimp or pressure line, I wondered a bit, but I examined the negatives very closely and also examined the pressure plate that I use on my film cutter and there aren't places on the plate that would put undue pressure in any one place on the negative.

When I agitate the tube by rolling it, the "roll" is very slow, at about one revolution every 5 or 6 seconds and I roll one way for 1-1/2 turns, then back the other way the same amount at the same speed, so it's pretty slow.

cheers