Sepia Toners

Hello,

I'd like to try a sepia toner for the first time (my experience with toning so far is limited to selenium only), but I can't decide which one. I've noticed there are three main varieties:
1. direct toners based on sodium thiosulfate and potassium alum
2. indirect toners base on sodium sulfide
3. indirect toners based on thiourea

I'll dismiss direct toners, because they are strongly dependent on the paper. Only warmtone papers react to them, and the way they react cannot be controlled (at least not to a useful degree).
Sodium sulfide toners are stinky, must be used with great care in a well ventilated area, and, most importantly, give off fumes that fog unexposed films and papers.
Thiourea toners are odorless, and, although I haven't seen this explicitly stated anywhere, I assume they don't fog films and papers and do not require special precautions.

Do thiourea toners have any drawbacks in comparison to sodium sulfide toners? I think they must have, because otherwise people would have stopped using sulfide toners a long time ago. Is there any reason why I should put up with the stink of a sulfide toner instead of going for a thiourea-based one? What are the ups and downs of each type (apart from stink and fogging fumes, that is)?

Thank you.

VladSoare said:

Do thiourea toners have any drawbacks in comparison to sodium sulfide toners? I think they must have, because otherwise people would have stopped using sulfide toners a long time ago. Is there any reason why I should put up with the stink of a sulfide toner instead of going for a thiourea-based one? What are the ups and downs of each type (apart from stink and fogging fumes, that is)?

Thank you.

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Thiourea toners CAN fog film/paper just as much as any other sulfide toner. Additionally, they're a known carcinogen. Other than that, they don't smell and you can dial things in relatively easily. Personally I use direct sulfide toners (KBT, Viradon) and put up with the smell - which is really not *that* bad (not good though).

Thiourea toners are more flexible because altering the pH alters the colour achieved, but the colours differ between formulae and it's useful to have both sulphide & thiourea on the shelf.

The direct Hypo/Alum toners do work with colder toned papers and give a good colour shift.

Ian

clayne said:

Thiourea toners CAN fog film/paper just as much as any other sulfide toner. Additionally, they're a known carcinogen...

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IIRC, thiourea itself is a fogging agent, but has to come in contact with an emulsion to fog it. If so, when using a thiourea toner, only what comes in contact with the solution can be affected. On the other hand, sulfide toners give H2S gas, which is a fogging agent. Gases are hard to control and it's always a good idea to use these toners in a well ventilated area without any films - papers around, or outdoors.

Thiourea is a possible carcinogen; research hasn't given definite results. The EU classification is Carcinogen Cat. 3:

Category 3: Substances which cause concern for humans, owing to possible carcinogenic effects but in respect of which the available information is not adequate for making a satisfactory assessment.

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In any case, be reasonable!

Thiourea toners CAN fog film/paper just as much as any other sulfide toner.

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I see. I was hoping they wouldn't.
But how do they fog them? I understand that the fogging of papers and films is caused by the toner's emission of hydrogen sulfide, which is also responsible for its bad smell. But thiourea toners give off no hydrogen sulfide, because otherwise they would stink, too. No smell means no hydrogen sulfide, right? :confused:

IIRC, thiourea itself is a fogging agent, but has to come in contact with an emulsion to fog it.

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That's great, then. I'm not worried about that. I'm not going to insert unexposed papers in the toner.
I'm only worried about fumes, because my darkroom is quite small, and I keep my photo papers in there, on a shelf.

VladSoare said:

That's great, then. I'm not worried about that. I'm not going to insert unexposed papers in the toner.
I'm only worried about fumes, because my darkroom is quite small, and I keep my photo papers in there, on a shelf.

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But you need to be very careful when mixing thiourea toners from scratch! I'd do it outdoors. Given the fact that Kodak has discontinued the only sepia toner available locally (Sepia toner I), I'll be forced to switch to thiourea.

It should be noted that these toners give considerably different tones. With most of them, the tone also varies a lot between different papers. Different formulations of the bleach and redeveloper also affect the tone of the indirect toners. Look up Dupont 6T Varigam Toner as an example. Hypo alum toner is not inert to all cold tone papers, but as you noted, the tone varies from paper to paper.

Check Tim Rudman's book on toning.

nworth said:

Check Tim Rudman's book on toning.

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If it were available at a reasonable price, that's exactly what I would do.

Chazzy said:

If it were available at a reasonable price, that's exactly what I would do.

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Get it out from your library, I assume the US is like the UK where you can order books from other libraries, actually in the UK we can do this online.

Ian

Have you given any thought to polysulfide toners?

CBG said:

Have you given any thought to polysulfide toners?

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Yes, but they seem to me to be the worst of both worlds (as far as comfort, safety, and image tone control are concerned, that is), meaning direct toners that give off hydrogen sulfide.
I'm looking for an indirect toner that can be used safely in the darkroom (where I also store my unexposed papers).

VladSoare said:

Yes, but they seem to me to be the worst of both worlds (as far as comfort, safety, and image tone control are concerned, that is), meaning direct toners that give off hydrogen sulfide.
I'm looking for an indirect toner that can be used safely in the darkroom (where I also store my unexposed papers).

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It's actually not that bad doing it outside or in a well-ventilated room. I regularly polysulfide tone in the kitchen, and while the fumes smell, they're definitely not overpowering (Viradon).

I don't have a standard of comparison, so I don't know which are the smelliest. Can anyone tell me what are the stinkers and what are the less noxious?
I've only used the new style Viradon and hypo alum toners. Neither seemed as bad as the stories of toners stinking people out of house and home, so some of the others must be much worse. Can anyone "line them up" in terms of worst, very bad, bad, not so bad ... to non stinky?

Thanks!

Charlie

Suffer a little "stink" and mix up the Ansco Sepia available on the web and do i that way. Being afraid of a little stink will chase you right out of photography and chemistry! Get some gonads and just do it!

The Sulphide toners are the worst, smell like rotten eggs & foul sewers, the Polysulphide toners are the next, most others are OK.

Ian

I'm a big fan of thiourea toners. It's so easy to adjust color and get exactly what you want, even Ilford papers tone beautifully. No smell, no storage problems here or affecting papers that I can see, except for making sure the sodium hydroxide solution is in a glass bottle (it can sometimes eat through a plastic bottle after a few months). Beautiful tones in combination with selenium as well...

Care must be taken when handling and mixing both thiourea and the sod hydroxide, but nothing out of the ordinary that we aren't already doing when we handle photo chems. Remember, that the sod hydroxide produces an exothermic reaction with water, creating much heat. Start with the coldest water you can get. You won't believe the amount of heat generated!

FWIW, I have been toning with sulfide toners for many years and have never once had a problem with fogging of unexposed materials. As has been said here, ventilation is key. If you've got enough sulfide gas in there to fog your film and paper, you should be worrying more about your health than your materials.

Based on what billschwab has to say and his experience suggests there is little to worry about but fearing the worst anyway why not temporarily remove all unexposed paper from the room except one sheet in its normal box and give a sulphide toner a try. Then check out the one sheet that remained in its box. If it is OK you have your answer and have lost nothing. If it is fogged then you have your answer and have lost one sheet only.

pentaxuser

billschwab said:

FWIW, I have been toning with sulfide toners for many years and have never once had a problem with fogging of unexposed materials. As has been said here, ventilation is key. If you've got enough sulfide gas in there to fog your film and paper, you should be worrying more about your health than your materials.

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Fully agree. I have used direct sulfide toners for many years as well. In addition to (and in combination with) selenium, that the only way to go for me.

VladSoar

I actually think polysulfide direct toners are the easiest to control. You don't need a darkroom, they are simple to prepare, the amount of toning can be seen while you do it, and it works with all papers, I've tried so far (Agfa, Ilford). I would not count them out. They are definitely my first choice.

Suffer a little "stink" and mix up the Ansco Sepia available on the web and do i that way. Being afraid of a little stink will chase you right out of photography and chemistry! Get some gonads and just do it!

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It's not the stink per se I'm worried about. Hydrogen sulfide is a poisonous gas, which also fogs unexposed papers and films that happen to be stored nearby. So it's more than just "a little stink".
I know there are ways of coping with this, but it's nevertheless an annoyance. Anyway, I'm going to put up with this annoyance if I have to, so it's not like it would chase me out of photography.

It's actually not that bad doing it outside or in a well-ventilated room. I regularly polysulfide tone in the kitchen, and while the fumes smell, they're definitely not overpowering

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Toning the prints outdoors is not an option for me. We have on average -5 degrees Centigrade in winter, and during fall it's not uncommon for it to rain continuously for days on end. I don't want to wait for weeks or months to tone my prints. And in the kitchen... well... I don't think my wife would be very happy about it, though I guess I could somehow come up with a reasonable excuse if I tried.

you should be worrying more about your health than your materials.

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I'm worrying about both.

Based on what billschwab has to say and his experience suggests there is little to worry about but fearing the worst anyway why not temporarily remove all unexposed paper from the room except one sheet in its normal box and give a sulphide toner a try. Then check out the one sheet that remained in its box. If it is OK you have your answer and have lost nothing. If it is fogged then you have your answer and have lost one sheet only.

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That's a great idea. I'll try that if I decide to go for a sulfide toner.

I actually think polysulfide direct toners are the easiest to control. You don't need a darkroom, they are simple to prepare, the amount of toning can be seen while you do it, and it works with all papers, I've tried so far (Agfa, Ilford). I would not count them out. They are definitely my first choice.

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That's great, then. I had assumed they were more difficult to control because they were direct toners, which means they have to act directly on the silver grains, like selenium toners do. I was thinking that their effect must depend on the paper's grain size. If they do work with any paper, then I guess my assumption was wrong. My mistake.
However, I'd still prefer an indirect toner, because it seems to me that the dilution of the bleach bath, plus the time the print spends in the bleach bath, give me an additional means of control. But I may be wrong about that; after all, I have no personal experience with indirect toners yet.

From people's comments here, it sounds like the stink is not as bad as I have occasionally read. Stinky, but not intolerable.

So, the stories I have seen of people being driven from their houses by the smell may be a bit exaggerated?

No the smell isn't insane - atleast with polysulfide toners.

You can also use direct toner as indirect toners ei: bleach before you tone.
So they are just as versatile if not more so.